I got a clatter

Mtbjay

In love with two-wheeled machines
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
239
Location
Sherwood, Oregon
…at cold start-up. I hear a light metallic clatter, coming from the front of the engine case, at idle +500 RPM's. I subdues in 2-3 minutes but only really disappears into the background after a few minutes of riding, warming the engine.

I don't hear it every time.

I changed the oil a couple of weeks ago and it is full.

stock 2012 XT1200 at 13,000 miles
 

Mtbjay

In love with two-wheeled machines
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
239
Location
Sherwood, Oregon
I read a bit about the tensioner here… they fail? Is that valves I might be hearing or, the chain itself?
 

~TABASCO~

RIDE ON ADV is what I do !
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Vendor
Joined
Apr 4, 2011
Messages
7,369
Location
TEXAS
Mtbjay said:
I read a bit about the tensioner here… they fail? Is that valves I might be hearing or, the chain itself?

chain, probably.... you can try a new 2014, but in my experience its not any better than a 12-13.... Or go manual....

We are now offering the Graves MCCT if your interested in going that route...
 

Purificator81

ride until the end of endless road...
Joined
Apr 30, 2014
Messages
375
Location
Morocco
Sounds like CCT failure...go manual CCT and get the cheap APE one


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

eemsreno

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
3,227
Location
On your way to everywhere, , Iowa
Before you spend any money go to your dealer and have them call Yamaha. It can't hurt.
 

tomatocity

Active Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
5,251
Location
Sacramento, CA USA
Sounds like the CCT. Read "2012 Tenere in the Shop". The CCT failed and so far there is more than $4,200 in parts. Not sure what the Labor costs will be. Luckily I purchased YES. My cost will be "more than 2 months not riding my Tenere". My advice it take care of your concerns soon. My Tenere was scheduled to go in for valve check a week later.
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Guys, the bike has only 13,000 miles on it. Chances are that it's the normal cold-start CCT clatter that we all heard/had to put up with. In that case the solution is the same as for everyone else - get it replaced under warranty if possible, if not just replace it with a '14 or manual tensioner at the next valve service. Nothing to worry about.
 

Mtbjay

In love with two-wheeled machines
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
239
Location
Sherwood, Oregon
dcstrom said:
Guys, the bike has only 13,000 miles on it. Chances are that it's the normal cold-start CCT clatter that we all heard/had to put up with. In that case the solution is the same as for everyone else - get it replaced under warranty if possible, if not just replace it with a '14 or manual tensioner at the next valve service. Nothing to worry about.

It is a mild, intermittent clatter, that just recently has developed. Plus, the bike runs fine otherwise. However….​


Tomato City says… (the comment that drew my attention)
"Sounds like the CCT. Read "2012 Tenere in the Shop". The CCT failed and so far there is more than $4,200 in parts. Not sure what the Labor costs will be. Luckily I purchased YES. My cost will be "more than 2 months not riding my Tenere". My advice it take care of your concerns soon. My Tenere was scheduled to go in for valve check a week later."


I am only at 13K, so do I play it safe, and pop for a pre-mature valve-check & CCT replacement - or wait another… what is it… 9,000 miles? Hard to know for certain. Obviously, I'd rather put off the expensive valve-check. I did't purchase YES - as I never thought I would benefit from it.
 

EricV

Riding, farkling, riding...
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
8,322
Location
Tupelo, MS
Mtbjay said:
I am only at 13K, so do I play it safe, and pop for a pre-mature valve-check & CCT replacement - or wait another… what is it… 9,000 miles? Hard to know for certain. Obviously, I'd rather put off the expensive valve-check. I did't purchase YES - as I never thought I would benefit from it.
It's not something to stress about at 13k. I had 82k when mine failed in an expensive manner, with fewer parts replaced than Tim, but a 4 month dragged out warranty repair. Wait, do the normal valve check and have them replace the CCT then, asking about warranty due to the noise, AT THAT TIME. Bend Over Bobs is not likely to do a pre-mature warranty replacement, but hey, you never know until you try.

Most of the '12 Super Tens have this same noise, and did since day one. Mine certainly did, as have some other '12's I've personally listened to. You can thank those that went before you for getting the issue "known" by Yamaha warranty reps so they don't fight it as much now.
 

Mtbjay

In love with two-wheeled machines
Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
239
Location
Sherwood, Oregon
So, not being very mechanically inclined (obviously), I understand the "cold-start clatter" I am hearing now and then is the valve timing chain knocking on the housing from lack of tension. I thought I read here, the CCT on my 2012 is hydraulically actuated and is (apparently) hanging-up a bit until enough pressure is built up to actuate it as the engine warms? And if I am to understand correctly, the timing chain can be a bit loose ( knocking about a bit) without major concern for quite awhile without incurring damage. But... if the chain becomes too loose, it can skip a tooth on the gears it is attached to and f*ck up the timing of the intake/exhaust valves- effectively ruining the engine. Is that about right??

Is the new 2014+ Yamaha replacement a new hydraulic unit? And is the after-market alternative is (presumably) spring-loaded, keeping a constant tension on the chain? (Which seems simple and begs the question why is the original CCT in my 2012 S10 hydraulically driven?

With the rain about gone, I may be racking on a few thousand miles - so this whole issue makes me nervous.
 

EricV

Riding, farkling, riding...
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
8,322
Location
Tupelo, MS
@Mtbjay - The cam timing chain has some normal slack in it when the engine is off. Yes, the oem CCT, (cam chain tensioner), is both spring and hydraulic. The spring is supposed to take up the slack until the oil pressure builds up, at which time the oil pressure will mask any deficiencies in the spring. Some clatter for the first minute or so is normal and common on many bikes, certainly the S10. This is not doing damage. The guides are plastic and intended to manage a little slop. Even at 82k and with a failure, my guides were in great shape, the chain was not showing damage, (though there is no spec for slack), and only the major failure of the CCT caused enough slack for the chain to slip.

What happens with the CCT is that during normal use and wear it slowly adjusts out and is not supposed to move back in. It's a plunger design. On a bad one, it floats back and forth. This can happen due to a weak or broken spring, as well as a poor design that the spring tension is not fully compensating for.

Yours would be rattling on cold start up, and hot start up, and the rattle would last longer than a minute or so if it was going bad. You should notice it getting significantly longer for that rattle period long before it fails. (I did) I was in the middle of a month long Alaska-Yukon trip and not near a dealer, so waited until I got home to take it to the dealer. I literally had an appointment the day it failed to have the valves checked/adjusted and the CCT looked at.

If I understand correctly, the aftermarket manual CCT is not spring loaded at all. You simply adjust it to the correct tension, and lock down the adjuster. It's on you to not over tighten it and to re-adjust it when necessary. Too loose or too tight and you can do damage. If you're admittedly not mechanical, a manual CCT is probably not something you want to do yourself and maintain yourself. Not that you can't learn it, just more work than you need, IMHO.

You really don't need to stress about this now. If the cold start rattle is really lasting a long time, take it to the dealer and have them listen to it. It's not going to skip a tooth until at least 50k or so. Waiting until the 26k valve check interval is generally pretty safe to do. Yamaha France put out a bullitin to have it replaced at the 52k service, if it had not already been done.

I have the '14 CCT in my '12 Super Ten. It's quiet on start up. Not everyone has had that result, so the jury is still out on how much better the newer design is. Yamaha did supersede the part number though, it's not just a '14 p/n, the new one is for all Super Tens. It is also spring and hydraulic, just a slightly different design. I don't know the exact difference. I'm not sure anyone on this board does. The spring/hydraulic design is just a belt and suspenders approach. The Yamaha FJR had only a spring design, and also went thru a couple of CCT re-designs. Perhaps because of that, Yamaha chose this design in the first place, or perhaps due to the dry sump engine, which means after an oil change, oil pressure takes a few moments longer to build up to normal.
 

tomatocity

Active Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
5,251
Location
Sacramento, CA USA
Mtbjay said:
So, not being very mechanically inclined (obviously), I understand the "cold-start clatter" I am hearing now and then is the valve timing chain knocking on the housing from lack of tension. I thought I read here, the CCT on my 2012 is hydraulically actuated and is (apparently) hanging-up a bit until enough pressure is built up to actuate it as the engine warms? And if I am to understand correctly, the timing chain can be a bit loose ( knocking about a bit) without major concern for quite awhile without incurring damage. But... if the chain becomes too loose, it can skip a tooth on the gears it is attached to and f*ck up the timing of the intake/exhaust valves- effectively ruining the engine. Is that about right??

Is the new 2014+ Yamaha replacement a new hydraulic unit? And is the after-market alternative is (presumably) spring-loaded, keeping a constant tension on the chain? (Which seems simple and begs the question why is the original CCT in my 2012 S10 hydraulically driven?

With the rain about gone, I may be racking on a few thousand miles - so this whole issue makes me nervous.
- If you are under warranty or extended warranty: If it was mine... I would take the Tenere to the dealer and explain your concerns. If all goes well they will replace the CCT without question. If not... have them call the service manager at PCP Motorsports in Sacramento CA and talk to him. He is now a believer in what damage a failed CCT can do.
- If you are not under warranty: Be safe and replace the CCT with the newer CCT or Manual CCT.
- Either option is better / safer than what you have.
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
I think we have a trend here Eric - mine was virtually the same! I had literally 20 miles between me and an appointment to get the CCT changed when it failed.

I'd had the valves done not long before, and asked the tech about the CCT rattle - he said "they all do that". That was before I read about your drama, and in defense of the tech, he's in the UK and not used to seeing high-mileage bikes, hadn't heard of any failures so had no reason to think the noise was anything other than normal.

My '14 tensioner is quiet at all times, startup included.


EricV said:
I literally had an appointment the day it failed to have the valves checked/adjusted and the CCT looked at.
 

tomatocity

Active Member
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
Mar 1, 2011
Messages
5,251
Location
Sacramento, CA USA
dcstrom said:
I think we have a trend here Eric - mine was virtually the same! I had literally 20 miles between me and an appointment to get the CCT changed when it failed.

I'd had the valves done not long before, and asked the tech about the CCT rattle - he said "they all do that". That was before I read about your drama, and in defense of the tech, he's in the UK and not used to seeing high-mileage bikes, hadn't heard of any failures so had no reason to think the noise was anything other than normal.

My '14 tensioner is quiet at all times, startup included.
I was a week away from a valve adjustment and the CCT replaced. The mechanic was too busy to get it in any sooner.
 

dcstrom

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
2011 Site Supporter
Joined
Dec 16, 2010
Messages
2,035
Tomatocity, you've probably said before, but was that the 48,000 mile valve check that was about to be done? If so, that would be the earliest failure I've heard of.

tomatocity said:
I was a week away from a valve adjustment and the CCT replaced. The mechanic was too busy to get it in any sooner.
 
Top