I cannot figure this out! Huge power dip.

DanijelTodic

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I understand the thought that the neutral switch could stay showing neutral when in second. My suggestion was to force the neutral map by jumpering the clutch switch as a test. If you jumper the clutch switch, then all gears would use the same neutral map, and you would see whatever effect that map causes in every gear. If the problem still presented only in 2nd gear with the clutch switch jumpered, then it is not the map.
You could probably accomplish the same test by disconnecting the neutral switch.
I am going to try the clutch switch jumper and see if i can reproduce the problem in different gears. Thanks!
 

DanijelTodic

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I believe the neutral sensor is located on the right-hand side of the engine, bolted into the engine casing from the rear. It's a pintle-style, not rotational. If your tuner suspects a problem with the switch, you could at least verify its operation with a voltmeter. Seems to me you'd be getting a neutral light on the dash if it were false triggering, though?

If you want to get really crazy, you might be able to use very thin shims to adjust the neutral switch's depth to see if it affects anything, but I've no idea if doing so would be a complete waste of time -- just going off of what the tuner said.

As jbrown is saying, it might be possible to induce the problem to see if it can be fixed. Seems to me that the high-load region on a neutral map wouldn't really be used at neutral, so the tuner should theoretically be able to command different fueling there to influence the false-triggering in 2nd gear. But take that with a grain of salt, I'm just speculating.

The entire purpose of control systems is to maintain stability, to maintain control, and it's strange to have a region of engine operation in which the fueling cannot be influenced -- a loss of control.
Have never seen a neutral light come on but will try to see if i can spot it. If it lights up it probably does so fast that i could miss it.

I still don't understand looking at the neutral map why it would cause the bike to hesitate. I do think that the ignition timing is advanced by 17 degrees at that rpm is the neutral map. Could this cause this hesitation?
 

Alexander

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To be clear, you should NOT make any changes without conferring with your tuner. You need to have your tuner looking over you shoulder when you make ANY changes, because he might need to adjust the tune to keep the engine safe. We're merely offering some suggestions for you and your tuner to look into, if you're serious about trying to remedy the problem.

I can't answer your question absent any data. I would need to see the tuning tables and any datalogs to offer any advice. "17 degrees of timing" is only a single data point, and tells me nothing about the dynamic changes going on in the engine.

The tuning software I own is not specific to the Tenere, but it uses scatterplots, line graphs, and histograms of datalogs to locate such tuning problems. If there's a sudden dip or spike in fuel or spark, it stands out like a sore thumb on a line graph or scatterplot, and you can then make changes in the corresponding regions of the tune based off of those errors. I simply haven't played with tuning the Tenere at all because it's still under warranty, so again, take my advice with a grain of salt -- the Tenere's computer isn't my focus of experience. I tune cars.
 

DanijelTodic

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To be clear, you should NOT make any changes without conferring with your tuner. You need to have your tuner looking over you shoulder when you make ANY changes, because he might need to adjust the tune to keep the engine safe. We're merely offering some suggestions for you and your tuner to look into, if you're serious about trying to remedy the problem.

I can't answer your question absent any data. I would need to see the tuning tables and any datalogs to offer any advice. "17 degrees of timing" is only a single data point, and tells me nothing about the dynamic changes going on in the engine.

The tuning software I own is not specific to the Tenere, but it uses scatterplots, line graphs, and histograms of datalogs to locate such tuning problems. If there's a sudden dip or spike in fuel or spark, it stands out like a sore thumb on a line graph or scatterplot, and you can then make changes in the corresponding regions of the tune based off of those errors. I simply haven't played with tuning the Tenere at all because it's still under warranty, so again, take my advice with a grain of salt -- the Tenere's computer isn't my focus of experience. I tune cars.
I am not able to make changes without my tuner. I don't have the correct tools. What i can do is try the clutch mod to see if they hesitation will be noticable in alle the gears.

This is a picture of the neutral timing table. Could this make any sense looking at the table? Because the hesitation is there only between 3900 and 4000 rpm. At 4100 rpm and above she rides fine. Same goes for under 3900 rpm.
 

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jbrown

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I am not able to make changes without my tuner. I don't have the correct tools. What i can do is try the clutch mod to see if they hesitation will be noticable in alle the gears.

This is a picture of the neutral timing table. Could this make any sense looking at the table? Because the hesitation is there only between 3900 and 4000 rpm. At 4100 rpm and above she rides fine. Same goes for under 3900 rpm.
That is a comparison of two ignition advance maps, not the actual map itself.
Please note that FlashTune (you are showing a FlashTune dialog) misinterpreted the timing advance data. The timing map FlashTune shows as the neutral map is actually an unused timing table. The real neutral map does not have the extreme advance values at 100% throttle.
I have a FlashTune setup, and I was in disbelief that Yamaha would allow the extreme advance (potential engine killer) in any gear. So I tested by filling each map in turn with zeros (no advance). This allowed me to ride the bike with each change and tell for certain which gear each map applies to (no advance caused very low power, easy to tell). I tried to tell FlashTune about the error, but they would have none of that, insisting that their scheme of analyzing the ECU ROM is infallible.
 

DanijelTodic

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That is a comparison of two ignition advance maps, not the actual map itself.
Please note that FlashTune (you are showing a FlashTune dialog) misinterpreted the timing advance data. The timing map FlashTune shows as the neutral map is actually an unused timing table. The real neutral map does not have the extreme advance values at 100% throttle.
I have a FlashTune setup, and I was in disbelief that Yamaha would allow the extreme advance (potential engine killer) in any gear. So I tested by filling each map in turn with zeros (no advance). This allowed me to ride the bike with each change and tell for certain which gear each map applies to (no advance caused very low power, easy to tell). I tried to tell FlashTune about the error, but they would have none of that, insisting that their scheme of analyzing the ECU ROM is infallible.
This is good to know because the bike has been flashed using FlashTune. Do you know by the way if there is any way to obtain a ECU interface cable that does not cost ridiculous money? I would like to have a go at it but cant justify paying 300 euro for a simple cable. Do you think i could DIY one?

Something else:

I had the dealer flash a 1:1 linear map. Really liking it! I had to get used to it but the predictable feeling is great. The bike also pulls very hard from low rpm which is really nice. Why don't more people use an 1:1 map?
 

jbrown

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The FlashTune cable is not just a cable. There is some electronics in it.. I believe they are FTDI cables. At least installing the FlashTune software installs FTDI drivers.
https://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Cables.htm
These cables have an internal USB uart to send/receive USB protocol data to/from your computer, and a can be programmed to control the output pins in various ways. The cables can be programmed with a non-changeable serial number to let software identify the cable.
The FlashTune software expects to see a FlashTune cable. And information about the ECU is stored either in the cable, or in some FlashTune data on your PC, to lock it to paid for targets. If you knew enough about what FlashTune does with the cable, I suppose you could make your own. You would also need the motorcycle specific connector(s) for the ECU end.
Old FlashTune versions didn't lock the cable to the ECU, but they (FlashTune) won't give you an old version. All FlashTune versions I've used will automatically update themselves if they have an internet connection. A few years ago, they changed the software so it won't run without an internet connection.
 

DanijelTodic

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The FlashTune cable is not just a cable. There is some electronics in it.. I believe they are FTDI cables. At least installing the FlashTune software installs FTDI drivers.
https://www.ftdichip.com/Products/Cables.htm
These cables have an internal USB uart to send/receive USB protocol data to/from your computer, and a can be programmed to control the output pins in various ways. The cables can be programmed with a non-changeable serial number to let software identify the cable.
The FlashTune software expects to see a FlashTune cable. And information about the ECU is stored either in the cable, or in some FlashTune data on your PC, to lock it to paid for targets. If you knew enough about what FlashTune does with the cable, I suppose you could make your own. You would also need the motorcycle specific connector(s) for the ECU end.
Old FlashTune versions didn't lock the cable to the ECU, but they (FlashTune) won't give you an old version. All FlashTune versions I've used will automatically update themselves if they have an internet connection. A few years ago, they changed the software so it won't run without an internet connection.
Oh man that is way to complicated to reproduce! I will check with my tuner if has something laying around that he is willing to sell for a decent price. Thanks!
 

twinrider

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Hey guys,

I have been trying to figure something out for a while now.

My bike really hesitates when I give it full throttle in second gear between 3900 and 4000 rpm. After 4000 it's perfect, before 3900 perfect as well. In all the other gears it takes off perfectly. The bike keeps on accelerating like it's given half throttle in stead of full until I release the throttle and start accelerating from a different rpm.

If I roll on the throttle then it's fine but if I snap it open she chokes. Now if she did this always I would blame it on not rolling on the throttle. But in all other scenarios I can snap the throttle and fly off.

The bike is a 2015 with 60.000km

I don't get it! Is this a APS, TPS thing or is it something about my flash and the ECU mapping?

Hope you guys can shed some light on this.
Take a spin over to the UK, and have Chris Steedman at CJS Racing in Bristol flash your bike. They did mine and it runs great. Total beast! All for 200 quid.

 

DanijelTodic

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Take a spin over to the UK, and have Chris Steedman at CJS Racing in Bristol flash your bike. They did mine and it runs great. Total beast! All for 200 quid.

I already have a really good flash but thanks for the tip!
 

DanijelTodic

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Update: Rode the bike using the neutral map. No difference. Still huge dip around 3900 rpm in second gear. Snap the throttle and she takes off as if I opened the throttle halfway until I let go and accelerate from a different rpm.

It's not a big deal and rarely a problem but still I want to figure this out. There must be some logic here. Dealer just says don't WOT in that specific moment but that really is not good enough for me.

If you guys have any suggestions on how to figure this out please let me know.
 

DanijelTodic

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I have uploaded a videoclip to YouTube to show the problem. The audio is really bad but you can see the revs move up very slowly when i give it WOT at around 4000 RPM in 2nd gear. The bike feels slow and sluggish.

 

DanijelTodic

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That is a comparison of two ignition advance maps, not the actual map itself.
Please note that FlashTune (you are showing a FlashTune dialog) misinterpreted the timing advance data. The timing map FlashTune shows as the neutral map is actually an unused timing table. The real neutral map does not have the extreme advance values at 100% throttle.
I have a FlashTune setup, and I was in disbelief that Yamaha would allow the extreme advance (potential engine killer) in any gear. So I tested by filling each map in turn with zeros (no advance). This allowed me to ride the bike with each change and tell for certain which gear each map applies to (no advance caused very low power, easy to tell). I tried to tell FlashTune about the error, but they would have none of that, insisting that their scheme of analyzing the ECU ROM is infallible.
jbrown what do you think of this? This is a comparison of the stock and unrestricted ignition maps in FTECU. I am not sure what map my tuner has flashed but this could maybe explain the hesitation around 4000 rpm. The ignition is advanced pretty substantially. By 30 degrees if i am reading it correctly. I remember WJBertrand having a similar problem with a generic FTECU flash.

And what do you think about the second image? Those are the settings for the Decel Fuel Cut option. It's set to disable below 15500 rpm and enable at 16000 rpm. So basically it never enables. Does that help with the on/off throttle?


Capture2.PNG
Capture.PNG
 

jbrown

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jbrown what do you think of this? This is a comparison of the stock and unrestricted ignition maps in FTECU. I am not sure what map my tuner has flashed but this could maybe explain the hesitation around 4000 rpm. The ignition is advanced pretty substantially. By 30 degrees if i am reading it correctly. I remember WJBertrand having a similar problem with a generic FTECU flash.

And what do you think about the second image? Those are the settings for the Decel Fuel Cut option. It's set to disable below 15500 rpm and enable at 16000 rpm. So basically it never enables. Does that help with the on/off throttle?
I don't think the ignition advance differences are responsible for your issue.
If I understand the FlashTune ignition timing display, the differences between the stock and unrestricted map2 values are at low to moderate throttle, not full throttle. And the result of too much advance at high throttle / mid rpm would start with pinging (with power drop off similar to miss-firing), then progress to engine damage. I don't think that matches your symptoms.
Also, the FT unrestricted ignition advance displays for map2 and map3 are identical, so if this were the cause of your power drop, it would show up in third gear as well. That's assuming FT got the gear mapping correct (I have medium confidence in the correct gear to ignition mapping that FT shows - it could be verified via several re-flash tests).
The only ignition advance changes I've made were to identify the real neutral (and clutch pulled) map on my '12 US bike, where the FT display was wrong. So I don't have any hands-on knowledge of what the specific changes would do - just a general understanding.
 

DanijelTodic

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I don't think the ignition advance differences are responsible for your issue.
If I understand the FlashTune ignition timing display, the differences between the stock and unrestricted map2 values are at low to moderate throttle, not full throttle. And the result of too much advance at high throttle / mid rpm would start with pinging (with power drop off similar to miss-firing), then progress to engine damage. I don't think that matches your symptoms.
Also, the FT unrestricted ignition advance displays for map2 and map3 are identical, so if this were the cause of your power drop, it would show up in third gear as well. That's assuming FT got the gear mapping correct (I have medium confidence in the correct gear to ignition mapping that FT shows - it could be verified via several re-flash tests).
The only ignition advance changes I've made were to identify the real neutral (and clutch pulled) map on my '12 US bike, where the FT display was wrong. So I don't have any hands-on knowledge of what the specific changes would do - just a general understanding.
I see what you are saying. The ignition advance is indeed at low load. Did not see that. I don't know if i can recognize/hear pinging or miss-firing...The engine is so noisy that it would probably be hard to hear the pinging. Would you say that running the unrestricted map is safe for my stock 2015 S10? Or should i just use the throttle maps and leave the ignition stock?

Thanks for helping!
 

jbrown

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I see what you are saying. The ignition advance is indeed at low load. Did not see that. I don't know if i can recognize/hear pinging or miss-firing...The engine is so noisy that it would probably be hard to hear the pinging. Would you say that running the unrestricted map is safe for my stock 2015 S10? Or should i just use the throttle maps and leave the ignition stock?

Thanks for helping!
I don't think there should be any problem with the FT unrestricted ignition timing maps. Others have been using that flash without trouble. I'm assuming your tuner is using the unrestricted maps that FT provides, and has not made additional changes to the ignition timing.
Having said that, with your 2nd gear issue, I would probably try to restore a dead stock flash as a troubleshooting step in diagnosing your problem, if you could do that at a minimal cost. I don't know if the EU bike has an immobilizer or not. If not, you could try to find someone with a stock ECU (with the same part number) that would let you swap it for a test. It's hard to imagine your 2nd gear only issue not being rooted in the ECU, but I don't see how the FT unrestricted maps could cause it either. It is a real puzzle.
 

DanijelTodic

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I honestly don't know what my tuner has flashed to the bike. That is part of the confusion. I have seen him use FlashTune but at a certain point i have also seen Woolich on his screen. But i think he used FlashTune. Which map? No idea. I am going to give it a shot myself and go through everything step by step when i get the FTECU package. I do everything myself on the bike but this is completely new to me. I do find it interesting and i am trying to learn as much as i can. Your help is much appreciated! My bike has a immobilizer so swapping ECU's is a no go.

I am going to try the stock and unrestricted maps an see how she runs. From there i will see if i can smooth out the throttle and make it run as best as i can. I know that everybody is really happy with Anthony's flash. I don't think that he will share his secrets with me....
 

jbrown

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Keep in mind that the FlashTune setup does not let you read the existing ECU information. All you can do is replace the entire ECU flash ROM info. The stock ROM data was captured by Flashtune cutting open an ECU to read the data from a hardware diagnostic port. So when you replace the existing flash with the stock flash, you will loose whatever changes your tuner has made.
 
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