Has Anyone Else Noticed?

[Zepfan]

I experienced it once about a month ago. 15k mi. on bike.

Took me about 20 min of ear wrenching, battery grinding starter action and bump starting ( not fun hauling the bike back up the hill after failure, to get back to battery charger.)

Finally tried WOT ( first time I herd the term, today) it started after 45 sec - 1min of WOT.

It sat for over a week. 100 degree in shade day I decided to fire it up.

Ordered Gen 2.... can't wait to try it. Hard start no big deal w/ WOT knowledge. Took me 20 minutes to try it.

 

[Dallara]

Maybe they are out riding instead of posting their every bowl movement or hard starting Yamaha on the Internet.

Rode mine over 400 miles yesterday, Roy, and have over 35,000 miles on mine to date.

How many have you got on yours?

Dallara








p.s. - you may want to work on that spelling, too, Roy... ::025::
~

 

[Rasher]

Had one the other day WOT got it going after about 30 seconds cranking.

May have been related to a rather enthusiastic clean, I did fire the bike up briefly (mainly because I accidentally turned on the ignition while only wanting to undo the steering lock, and worried the on-of-on would make for a hard start) but I ran it until the engine temp was right up (fan had kicked in)

I then properly blasted it inside and out with the Jetwash (no debate on that required thanks) in preparation for an ACF treatment.

The next start was hard, maybe water got in somewhere, maybe the short run on the drive affected it, usual symptoms of no life, followed by the odd splutter and then starting with horrible stink of fuel - although not so bothered now I know how to get it going, if the battery starts to run out of puff I know how to pull the FI fuse so am pretty sure it will always start and never be more than an inconvenience - still think Yamaha should sort the bloody problem though :exclaim:

 

[squarebore]

Would it be that I were so wise! ::025::

But then again... You have this:





Immediately followed by this:



I mean, c'mon Fellas!!!

You 're really gonna' try and tell me there's absolutely no possibility whatsoever the problem might not be operator induced?

The randomness of it alone suggests that, as does logic. But hey, to each their own.

Dallara




~

Why do you think it may be operator induced? I'm not being smart but serious question. I thought with fuel injection all I had to do was press the starter. What could I do wrong there? Cheers

 

[creggur]

Why do you think it may be operator induced? I'm not being smart but serious question. I thought with fuel injection all I had to do was press the starter. What could I do wrong there? Cheers

Let go of the starter button before it fires and leave a glut of fuel in there flooding the engine...BTDT

Click it into first with the side stand still down and kill the engine immediately after startup leaving a glut of fuel in there flooding the engine...BTDT

Pull the bike in the garage after a wash letting it only run for a few seconds, hence leaving a glut of fuel in there flooding the engine...BTDT

I'm convinced it's an over-rich condition because of the effectiveness of WOT to cure the situation in the vast majority of reported occurrences, and the smell of raw fuel after the bike does start. Which makes some sense if the bike is programmed anything like a car, which is to run pretty-damn rich on cold start to not only keep it running, but to also get the cat(s) up to temp as quick as possible...

 

[Dallara]

Let go of the starter button before it fires and leave a glut of fuel in there flooding the engine...BTDT

Click it into first with the side stand still down and kill the engine immediately after startup leaving a glut of fuel in there flooding the engine...BTDT

Pull the bike in the garage after a wash letting it only run for a few seconds, hence leaving a glut of fuel in there flooding the engine...BTDT

I'm convinced it's an over-rich condition because of the effectiveness of WOT to cure the situation in the vast majority of reported occurrences, and the smell of raw fuel after the bike does start. Which makes some sense if the bike is programmed anything like a car, which is to run pretty-damn rich on cold start to not only keep it running, but to also get the cat(s) up to temp as quick as possible...

Thank you, Creggur.

You just very eloquently elucidated exactly the reasons I would have presented as candidates for "operator error". Especially the first one - letting go of the starter button before the bikes starts. With the programming of today's EFI systems that is something folks simply need to be *trained* to avoid. It is such a big issue that some manufacturers (Ducati comes to mind, and it's mostly European brands at the moment) are designed where once you press the starter button the engine continues to crank, even if you release it, until either the engine fires or you turn off the kill switch or the key.

It's the may reason I think some people experience the "hard start" issue over and over, multiple times, while others never have the problem, or it is a "once in a blue moon" occurrence.

And it's also as you state... The fact that WOT is the *cure* is the overwhelming evidence that such minor "operator glitches" are the cause.

Problem is that nobody wants to admit such a thing could possibly be the case.

Dallara



~

 

[MrTwisty]

^^^^^^^^^
Uggggg....I don't think anyone has a problem admitting that it is an operator induced problem. We just expect better from Yamaha. They should be able to account for our ineptness.

 

[snakebitten]

Ouch! I had a BIG hard start episode Friday evening.
Ironically, it wasn't rider error. It was motorcycle tech error.

I had dropped off the bike at my dealer Thursday. Unusual for me because they usually service my bike while I wait. But because my 28,000 mile service was abbreviated, (Oil change only. I was in New Mexico after the Ouray Rally) my service tech wanted to combine both service intervals into one big one. This included greasing head steering bearings, swing arm bearings, etc. So, too long to just sit around.

When I returned to pick it up, I didn't want to start it to load it up in the truck. I mentioned that to the tech. He said he understood. And in fact, my bike had a hard start episode for them because another techs finger slipped off the start button before the bike started when they were doing the service.

Anyways, I get it home. Unload it using gravity. Go to start it up and I immediately experience no start. I also could tell my battery was not at full strength, which implies that it got a workout by the dealer. The bike was not turning over nearly as fast as normal. But it did have enough battery to sustain a lengthy attempt. Several 30 second attempts. No start though.

I removed the electrical side panel with the intention of trying the FI fuse trick. But since I was right next to my truck, I decided to jump it first. This did give it enough battery to continue another 4 or 5 30 second continuous cranks. Still no start.

(30 seconds seems like forever during a WOT crank)

Then I decided to start the truck. Just to see if the additional juice would help.

Man, the second I hit the start button the speed at which the starter cranked was WAY faster than the motorcycle battery ever cranked. Took 3 seconds of WOT to light up.

So, a couple of points..................
WOT alone is not a guaranteed solution if you end up with a SEVERE flooding. You need some starter FIRE too. Some RPM's.
So for the folks that have a concern with this happening away from home, in a pinch, just treat it like a dead battery issue.
Jump it as if you were in your car away from home.
I'm betting this thing will jump to life quickly with the temporary super charge to your battery\starter.

 

[creggur]

This is interesting, Snake. I've seen weak batteries in cars in my shop that will turn the engine over (with a push-button start - over-and-over-and-over-and-over) as they are designed like Dallara described to keep turning over until the engine starts or you hit the button again.

The no-start reason is a weak battery...there's enough juice to turn the engine over, BUT not enough to turn the engine over AND get the right pressure from the high-pressure fuel pump for the direct-injection system. Took us a few minutes to figure this one out when we first got GDI engines...

I wonder if your tech's hard-start drained your battery to the point that it caused a similar condition for you. Did you smell the tell-tale fuel smell of a flooded engine when yours finally fired?



**edit**
Never mind - this wouldn't apply as you attempted a jumped start from your truck which would've been plenty of juice to overcome what I described even without the truck running...

 

[snakebitten]

You aren't that far off.

I think my episode is unique in one aspect...........

I think the dealer caused and experienced the kind of hard start that is so often chronicled.
But unlike any of us, they had no intention to follow some "procedure" that is documented, NOR did they do anything to get the bike back into normal condition.
(Recharge the drained battery and run the bike long enough to complete the full heat cycle of the motor)

As a result, I inherited a hard start flooded condition AND a weak battery.
Because WOT didn't work for me, I think I was flooded to an extreme. And possibly making it worse.

That's why even the improved cranking speed with the help of the truck battery would still not start the bike. Even after multiple WOT attempts.
Mine was saturated.

But once I started the truck, the increased power available to the Tenere starter was far more than with the engine off. The cranking speed was really fast. No laboring at all. Almost like removing a plug!

She lit right away!

And yes, strong fumes of unburnt fuel. Even in open air.

Point is, I now think a hard start episode is far less of a drama issue if you can find some way to spin that starter at an increased rate.

 

[squarebore]

Thank you, Creggur.

You just very eloquently elucidated exactly the reasons I would have presented as candidates for "operator error". Especially the first one - letting go of the starter button before the bikes starts. With the programming of today's EFI systems that is something folks simply need to be *trained* to avoid. It is such a big issue that some manufacturers (Ducati comes to mind, and it's mostly European brands at the moment) are designed where once you press the starter button the engine continues to crank, even if you release it, until either the engine fires or you turn off the kill switch or the key.

It's the may reason I think some people experience the "hard start" issue over and over, multiple times, while others never have the problem, or it is a "once in a blue moon" occurrence.

And it's also as you state... The fact that WOT is the *cure* is the overwhelming evidence that such minor "operator glitches" are the cause.

Problem is that nobody wants to admit such a thing could possibly be the case.

Dallara



~

Still seems like an issue for Yamaha to fix for me. I've i owned and driven plenty of bikes and cars and never had one that had this issue. I've never even heard of such a thing for a fuel injected machine.

Did some testing yesterday and started, stopped, finger off starter before completing cycle etc etc. no issue. Seems very inconsistent and I don't think we have identified the issue correctly as yet.

 

[tomatocity]

How about a list of the riders that have experienced Hard Starts and the modifications they have added/completed. Look for the common denominator(s).

 

[MrTwisty]

How about a list of the riders that have experienced Hard Starts and the modifications they have added/completed. Look for the common denominator(s).

I could be wrong, but it seems the common denominator is a start and quick shut-down without warming up, followed by a long period of time (a day or two) before restart. However, I don't think it does it every time. My theory is that fuel slowly seeps into the combustion chanber while the bike sits. Perhaps the fuel pump pressurizes the system and the injector solenoid doesn't close completely, allowing fuel to pass through and fill the combustion chamber.

 

[fredz43]

I could be wrong, but it seems the common denominator is a start and quick shut-down without warming up, followed by a long period of time (a day or two) before restart. However, I don't think it does it every time. My theory is that fuel slowly seeps into the combustion chanber while the bike sits. Perhaps the fuel pump pressurizes the system and the injector solenoid doesn't close completely, allowing fuel to pass through and fill the combustion chamber.

My one time was a quick start and shutdown of a cold engine when testing my relay for the heated grips. Had the hard start no more than 30 minutes later after I had everything buttoned up and ready to go. The only time in 29,000 miles.

 

[Dirt_Dad]

I could be wrong, but it seems the common denominator is a start and quick shut-down without warming up, followed by a long period of time (a day or two) before restart.

One of my three episodes fits that description. Another was repeatedly turning on and off the key (kill switch in Run), while doing some electrical work. 4 days later I had a hard start. The last episode I could not pin on either of those situations. Just don't have a good explanation for that one.

I can see why a low battery would be an issue, but at least one of mine was with a bike that had been on a trickle charger for a few days up until the incident. Battery was plenty strong on that one.