Hard start has me thinking

[JackN]

Is there any way just to stop the development of so many threads of hard start, leave it to one with all the information condensed to the very start of the thread and then just move the start up threads on the topic to the bottom page of that thread? I just dont see the reason for another thread on this, oil, or tires.

I didn't start this thread to rehash the cause of hard starting. I was just venting a bit about a frustrating problem with an otherwise very dependable motorcycle. When you're dealing with a well maintained vehicle in good working order, it should start when you press the button, period. If I need to run the bike for a couple of minutes to get it off the trailer and up a soft gravel driveway because it's too heavy to push, I shouldn't have to worry if it'll start the next time I push the button. Yamaha has to know about this hard start situation and they should solve it. The fact that they haven't addressed this issue stinks, and it makes me angry as an owner.
Having said that, the reality of the situation is that I'll probably just continue to be pissed off for a little while, then I'll get over it, go for a ride and be happy with the bike again.
Maybe some new gear for the bike would get me excited about it again. I could use some new tires. Anybody have any suggestions? Haha.

 

[BaldKnob]

Having said that, the reality of the situation is that I'll probably just continue to be pissed off for a little while, then I'll get over it, go for a ride and be happy with the bike again.

Riding has a way of making problems disappear. Just go WOT if/when it happens again. It has happened three times with my 2012 after startup and short run times so I stopped doing that. If you start it... run it till the fan cycles just for giggles.

As for tires... anything with knobs. Really transforms the offroad handling and can still rail dry asphalt.

 

[EricV]

Is there any way just to stop the development of so many threads of hard start, leave it to one with all the information condensed to the very start of the thread and then just move the start up threads on the topic to the bottom page of that thread? I just dont see the reason for another thread on this, oil, or tires.

Sure, new people have to use the search feature.

FWIW, this is not just a Super Tenere issue or an FJR issue, it crosses many boundaries in Yamaha products. Watercraft and snow machines are also known to have this issue.

 

[autoteach]

my chevy blazer, my subaru, kawasaki watercraft... I have seen this occur on far more fuel injected vehicles than you can imagine. In fact, I was talking to a former student who is attending college in Idaho and working on the Formula Hybrid (SAE) team. He was talking about how the team is working in Alpha-N tuning and not using MAP or MAF as an input, and how the lack of parameter inputs leads to load based fueling variations that effect drivability... where am I going with this... oh yeah, all the parameters in the arsenal doesn't net perfect tuning if one measurement isn't "true" or the compounding micro errors of different inputs net an imperfect fueling scenario. Now, I know I have talked about most of this in a full length posting, but I will make sure that I highlight a particular key element to the difficulty of starting this engine. Decompression mechanisms decrease the energy input into the air fuel mixture and therefor the ignitability of said mixture. Couple that with a potential inaccurate measurement resulting in poor fuel mixture, and you have a missed ignition event. At cold startup these missed events are particularly problematic as the range of ignitable fuel mixture values are much smaller due to low thermal energy(engine and air temp) and the low kinetic energy (decompression). This is all a pretty complicated problem, and really, a more difficult problem to solve with programming if a decompression mechanism is maintained. The alternative, and really a usable technique in all automotive fields, is to use WOT as soon as the bike doesn't fire within 3-5 seconds. Two things are done by opening the throttle WOT:
1: to shut off the injectors,easily noticed by the fact that when the bike fires, if you remain WOT, the bike nearly shuts off as it realizes that it is running and then turns on the fuel injection cycle
2: to increase compression by reducing manifold vacuum. Now, I know that there have been some people pissed off that WOT with ETC doesn't net anymore than about 15-20 degrees of throttle opening, but the fact is that the butterfly throttle mechanism by design is a non linear flow model and has a greater delta in the fist 20 degrees than it has in the last 40 or so degrees, hence the reason that most vehicles have a mechanism to make the throttle opening non linear to pedal movement: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads15/throttle+response+cam1250899088.jpg


All this is no different than cranking over a carbureted car and pumping the gas pedal to pump some extra fuel in. Electronic Fuel Injection, unfortunately, does not mean that you do not have to provide reasonable rider input. Using the throttle is a reasonable rider input.

Any questions?

 

[Bushyar15]

Hmmm, interesting issue. Knock on wood, I've never had this hard start issue… The one time when I dropped it on its side, picked it up and tried to start it, it didn't fire the first couple times I pushed the button, out of habit, thinking it was flooded from being tipped over, I held the throttle wide open hit the button and it fired….

As far as short starts and stops. I've also fired up my bike put it in gear and the engine died because I had the side-stand down. I put the stand up and it fired right up. So I'm hoping this doesn't happen to all bikes...

 

[AVGeek]

Is there any way just to stop the development of so many threads of hard start, leave it to one with all the information condensed to the very start of the thread and then just move the start up threads on the topic to the bottom page of that thread? I just dont see the reason for another thread on this, oil, or tires.

That requires manual input from the moderators, and right now our moderator team is a bit short handed...

And this thread is different enough (it didn't originate as a technical question), that adding it to an existing thread wouldn't necessarily be appropriate (even though it turned into a technically-oriented thread).

For my experience, I have a stock 2012...on it's 2nd battery (the desert heat kills batteries faster than cooler climes). I have always cracked open the throttle when starting the bike, due to the "lazyness" of the battery in turning over the motor. The only starting issues I've had is when the battery died on me in Vegas earlier this year, and I had to push start the Blue Rhino, usually by myself. I also found that using 2nd gear while doing this can trip the ABS off mode...

 

[snakebitten]

Having said that, the reality of the situation is that I'll probably just continue to be pissed off for a little while, then I'll get over it, go for a ride and be happy with the bike again.
Maybe some new gear for the bike would get me excited about it again. I could use some new tires. Anybody have any suggestions? Haha.

Ahhhhh, I notice a certain amount of cooling off already. You'll be fine! And I fully support your right and need to vent!

As far as tire suggestions go, I would get KILLED in this thread to even broach the subject. ::013::
But I will say that changing tires is therapeutic for me. I do it often. One of my favorite farkles.


Hey autoteach, THAT was an amazing explanation! I don't ever need another. That one suffices.

 

[Donk]

Not sure about tires but I could suggest an oil.....

 

[scott123007]

Not sure about tires but I could suggest an oil.....

Finally, a man that understands sarcasm

 

[mrpincher]

I've got a 12 edition and take this for what it's worth - ::025:: I've had the hard start - was in the first go around of this plague.

Personally I've kinda redefined the hard start as a longgggggggg start issue.....meaning that I don't let off the damn starter button too soon. Over the years, I've taken notice. that I hold that starter button down until that puppy fires up. I don't wuss out in a "why me moment." Hold onto that button and crank it for all she's worth! Happy to report No more hard start for me ::013::.

At least that's the story I'm sticking with at the moment because the hard start makes me wanna cry in public. :'( :'( :'( and we all know ya can't be cryin on you're Yamaha Super Tenere. Just don't.
::025::

Mike

 

[Maxified]

I've got a 12 edition and take this for what it's worth - ::025:: I've had the hard start - was in the first go around of this plague.

Personally I've kinda redefined the hard start as a longgggggggg start issue.....meaning that I don't let off the damn starter button too soon...I hold that starter button down until that puppy fires up.
::025::
Mike

Right there with ya, I am very cognizant of holding that starter button in until the ST fully comes to life. My two "long" starts were probably my own fault. Still, it's the only motorcycle I've ever owned (quite a few over the years) that has this particular quirk. Does not stop me from venturing 1000+ miles from home.

 

[JackN]

Ahhhhh, I notice a certain amount of cooling off already. You'll be fine! And I fully support your right and need to vent!

Yes, I am starting to cool off a bit. Although the bike doesn't give me the riding thrill that my Multi did, the S10 is by far the most comfortable motorcycle that I have ever ridden, and I do very much enjoy it for touring. Honestly, I'd really rather just keep it and enjoy it.
I had a long conversation with the service dept at my dealership today. Unfortunately they didn't have any new info for me. They seemed surprised by my call. They're good guys and I believe them when they tell me that they haven't had any other similar complaints with these bikes (although they did tell me that they have had a lot of similar complaints from their BMW customers who shut their bikes down with the kill switch). We did come up with a plan to definitively answer what creates the problem on my bike. I know many already feel they know what the problem is (starting for only a short time, cycling the key switch during service work, etc..) but we're going to systematically go through as many starting and stopping procedures as we can and document the results. Hopefully that will help to provide some data that will get us a little closer to a solution. At the very least I will know for sure what not to do and will do everything I can to avoid those scenarios.

 

[markjenn]

I know many already feel they know what the problem is (starting for only a short time, cycling the key switch during service work, etc..) but we're going to systematically go through as many starting and stopping procedures as we can and document the results. Hopefully that will help to provide some data that will get us a little closer to a solution. At the very least I will know for sure what not to do and will do everything I can to avoid those scenarios.

Be sure to exhaustively read the four or five threads on this, some of which did a lot of work collecting data and trying to consistently reproduce the problem. This previous work might temper your expectation of knowing anything "for sure". The reality so far is that you can do everything "wrong" and the bike will start over and over fine, but then do everything "right" and it will still randomly flood. The wrong things increase the chance of a problem but they don't consistently cause it.

- Mark

 

[Checkswrecks]

On the WR250R thread is an owner who has been having starting trouble and asked about FI mixture issues. I just wrote the following to him and some may help here, so I'll copy it.


You pressurize the FI system every time you turn on the key. IF both you and the injection system were perfect that would be the end of it and you would have a non-issue. However, the two most common reasons for flooding a FI system when starting relate (#1) to your hand and (#2) to how the idle is set. If you had LOTS of miles like a car, it's also possible to have a worn injection unit that leaks a little, but doubtful with your bike.

If while pressing the start button your hand rests on the throttle and rocks any movement into the FI injection end of the cable, YOU are over-riding the system and telling it to open the injector [at least] momentarily. You unwittingly move it away from how the engineers designed the system to give a clean start every time. Guess where the pressurized fuel goes? Straight into the engine [really into the rail] and suddenly the mixture is too rich to start. Your idle setting can do the same, so do check how your idle is set up. Try to not touch the throttle when rocking the kill switch, turning the key, or pressing the start button.
btw - This is the same for nearly all cars and trucks these days.

And remember that I mentioned it sounds like you were describing a mixture which is too rich? The CO setting is an adjustment for the idle fuel-air mixture, therefore yours has been making a fuel-rich start even harder.

The factories set the CO lean to meet EPA requirements and owners reset them for better off-idle performance. I seem to remember people finding their CO set to 0 and finding the bike runs well at settings of 3-5. It seems that with your bike, somebody applied the thought that if a little is good then a lot more is better. You are now nearly down to that 3-5 range, so good on you for realizing on your own that 10 was way too rich.

 

[yz454]

You hit it right on the nose . Checkswrecks

 

[markjenn]

All well and good, but again, let's be clear on something - I and many others have had the problem multiple times without touching the throttle, without cycling the key, without a previous interrupted hard start, without doing anything unusual whatsoever. And someone else has cycled the key 50+ times and the bike started fine. Or multiple times, started the bike, shut it off after a minute, then returned the next day and the bike started fine. To date, I don't think anyone has ever been able to get the problem to be reproducible consistently, at least not without repeatedly stopping and starting the bike over and over, deliberately fouling the plugs and draining the battery.

I welcome anyone willing to investigate further the problem, but READ THE PREVIOUS THREADS (including a couple on advrider.com) before declaring that you think you know what the issue is.

- Mark

 

[longride]

All well and good, but again, let's be clear on something - I and many others have had the problem multiple times without touching the throttle, without cycling the key, without a previous interrupted hard start, without doing anything unusual whatsoever. And someone else has cycled the key 50+ times and the bike started fine. Or multiple times, started the bike, shut it off after a minute, then returned the next day and the bike started fine. To date, I don't think anyone has ever been able to get the problem to be reproducible consistently, at least not without repeatedly stopping and starting the bike over and over, deliberately fouling the plugs and draining the battery.

I welcome anyone willing to investigate further the problem, but READ THE PREVIOUS THREADS (including a couple on advrider.com) before declaring that you think you know what the issue is.

- Mark

I read the threads on hard start, and MOST everyone that was having the issue either cycled the key, or started the bike without a warmup or ride. That is a fact. I reproduced it myself by starting it without a warmup after an oil change. I bet I could do it again by doing the same thing, but I won't do it. I am CERTAIN I know what ONE of the issues is. Is it every single one? I don't know. I have started the bike at least 600 times, and it was perfect every single time except for the one time I reproduced the hard start by starting without a warmup, so I THINK I can say with certainty NOT TO DO THAT. I don't need to read anything, or explain every single instance. I experienced it firsthand. Other than that one time, it was perfect, so I am telling people NOT to start it without riding it. It is CERTAINLY one of the causes of a hard start.

 

[markjenn]

It is CERTAINLY one of the causes of a hard start.

It is certainly a contributing factor. If it was the true "cause", then you could reproduce it by doing this and consistently get the problem. You have decided you don't want to test this, but many of us have and the bike, almost all the time, starts fine after an interrupted warmup or after key cycling. Until it doesn't.

- Mark

 

[EricV]

All well and good, but again, let's be clear on something - I and many others have had the problem multiple times without touching the throttle, without cycling the key, without a previous interrupted hard start, without doing anything unusual whatsoever.
- Mark

I'm quite sure you believe that. I'm equally sure that you do some sequence of events that creates the hard start, but you don't understand what those events are at this point. You're above quote has an error, in that a previously interrupted start need not be a hard start.

Time is a factor in some of the sequences as well. You can't always just follow a certain recipe to test for a hard start and then repeat it w/o some measure of time. Some bikes don't seem to display this behavior, regardless of attempts to duplicate it, others have the issue with seemingly random events preceding the hard start. Few things are truly random.

 

[MrTwisty]

Hard start has me thinking

my chevy blazer, my subaru, kawasaki watercraft... I have seen this occur on far more fuel injected vehicles than you can imagine.:http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploads15/throttle+response+cam1250899088.jpg

Apparently you're just not living right. I drive cars and motorcycles too and I've never experienced this problem with any of them except the Super Tenere.