Gen 1 or Gen 2 ST? Oil or water BMW? Need input please.

[flybigjet]

Hi gents--

I'm obviously in the market for a ADV bike. My current bike is a fairly well modified V-Rod Muscle that I've put a lot of time and effort into. It's a *great* bar bike, but as a touring machine? It *can* be done, *has* been done, but there more compromises involved than I'd like.

So.

I started out test riding a 2016 Non-ES, and my initial reaction was... "Ok, Gen 2 ES. No problem. Start searching."

Now, after spinning up in "research mode", I'm starting to rethink that a little bit.

It's not a matter of cost.... exactly, but maybe best "bang for the buck" would be the proper way to put this. I'm looking for something that I can do long distances on with an upright seating position and minimal wind noise. BUT, I want to be able to do fire roads, jeep trails, get off the beaten path with a tent, ride the dirt roads in Colorado, etc. I'd also like to be able to range from CO to Canada to WA to OR and CA-- my wife has given me "road trip" approval when she's working. I'm also planning to use the bike as a commuter to and from the airport (assuming I can strap a suitcase on the back and get my flight bag in the pannier).

So. Research says:

Used Gen 1 w/ most of the farkles I'd want to do (pipe, freer exhaust, bags, bars, plate, suspension, reflash): seem to be in the $8-9k range.

Gen 2? Let's say $14k for the ES bike new and $12 for the ES bike used and another $4k for add-ons, for a total of $16-18k. I've seen a 2014 non-ES w/ bags & bars for just over $13.

2015+ (heavier flywheel, liquid cooled) R1200GS. I haven't test ridden yet, so this is conjecture, but looking at For Sale bikes, call it $16-18k for a low mileage one with bars, plate and bags if you're patient.

2012 R1200GS (old oil cooled). I'll be riding a buddy's of mine next month for a test, but call it $10k with everything you need on it.

So, this is where I ask for opinions and thoughts. Obviously, the ST is going to be higher rated here on this forum, but the way I'm seeing the numbers it looks like the water BMW and Gen 2 (once you add up all of the farkles) are within spitting distance of each other and the Gen 1 and the older BMW are equivalent-- so I need to look all of them.

The Gen 1 (if you can find one that's farkled up the way you want it), seems to be an utter steal price-wise in comparison to Gen 2 and the wasserboxer-- but in the "real world", how does Gen 1 stack up to Gen 2?

I don't want to get rid of my other bike, because I've a) worked on it for four years to make it "just so" and b) it's a screaming hoot to ride, which means any other bike I get will be a part-time machine that gets ridden when I want to go far-- basically, it will not be my only bike, so maybe I should widen up my search range?

The ego says "Go buy a BMW, you can afford it". Practicality says "Get the Gen 2-- newer bike than the Gen 1 so it should be sorted out better with better reliability than the BMW", and common sense says "Is there really THAT much difference between a flashed Gen 1 and a stock Gen 2"?

So. Inputs? Experiences? Suggestions?

I'd be great if I could here from someone who's had some extensive seat time on a flashed Gen 1, a Gen 2 and the BMWs. I'm puzzled in the price differential from a 2012 w/ add-on's ($8-9k), a 2014 w/ add-on's ($14k)-- that's a pretty big step for what seem to be relatively minor improvements.

Or do I say "screw it" and wait for a nice ES to come up for sale?

Many thanks, gents.

R.

 

[colorider]

Re: Gen 1? Gen 2? BMW? Need input.... please?

I know you will get lots of comments concerning the differences between Gen 1 and Gen 2. For me, much as I liked my Gen 1 - so far I like the Gen 2 far better (even with the snatchy throttle). I'm coming off a Gen 3 FJR and I really like cruise control and the heated grips.

I have never owned the current R1200GS(A) and understand there is a HUGE difference between it and the older 1150 (which I owned). While I never had a failure on my 1150, there are way too many documented failures on the R1200GS (and similar BMW's). Enough, plus the increased cost of the BMW, that to me the choice to go with Yamaha is clear.

Actually, if you don't mind a chain, there are several other good choices out there for the type of ride you describe.

Good luck!

 

[trainman]

the ride of the R1200 will tell you one way or the other, in my view a very different bike, I had one and an 1150.
engine, character, noise, gearing, the list goes on, the BMW might have more power but it seemed to me that the gearing meant you had to pile on the rev's and it weren't happy pootling around in high gears, if you don't like stirring the box I think you will prefer the S10.

then there's the forks, personally I liked them

good luck

 

[flybigjet]

Re: Gen 1? Gen 2? BMW? Need input.... please?

I like the Gen 2 far better (even with the snatchy throttle).

I'm honestly a bit puzzled about the throttle "snatchiness" that people report on the Gen 2-- when I test rode the non-ES '16, I really didn't notice it-- I guess the best analogy I can give would be the throttle between the B-737 and the A-320. They both do the same thing, but feel very different-- but you figure it out quickly enough and adapt how you use them to get what you want. So, call that a non-issue for me.

There are way too many documented failures on the R1200GS (and similar BMW's). Enough, plus the increased cost of the BMW, that to me the choice to go with Yamaha is clear.

I haven't done much research on it yet (other than sit on it), but I wonder how those failures rate on the 2015+ GS. My thought would be to avoid the first model year and go for a 2015+ due to the heavier flywheel. I'll have to research failures within those parameters. I only know one person with that specific bike, but he's been completely satisfied with it. Pricewise, it seems that a new or near-new '15 ES plus add-ons (bags, pipe, flash, etc) is very comparable to a 2015+ GS with bags, bars and plate (IF you can wait for a "lost my job/can't ride for health reasons" bike). Say $16k for the ST-ES and ($16-18k for the Bimmer). They're close enough to consider-- although I absolutely agree that the scheduled maintenance costs will be much higher on the BMW. How much higher is a good question.

Actually, if you don't mind a chain, there are several other good choices out there for the type of ride you describe.

Suggestions? The only one I know of is the KTM 1190, but I'm just not feeling that one. I had chains on my old FZ-600, FZ-1 and R-6S, but those were sport bikes-- I don't remember them being much of an issue. Is there a big difference for an ADV? My current bike is belt driven, so that's what I'm familiar with.

So, I've been reading all morning (I'm on a layover in Chicago) and I guess if I had to make a decision today, I'd default to a Gen 2 ES (2014+, correct?) or a 2015+ R1200GS if I could find one for a good price.

Thanks for the thoughts! Very much appreciated.

R.

 

[flybigjet]

the ride of the R1200 will tell you one way or the other, in my view a very different bike, I had one and an 1150.
engine, character, noise, gearing, the list goes on, the BMW might have more power but it seemed to me that the gearing meant you had to pile on the rev's and it weren't happy pootling around in high gears, if you don't like stirring the box I think you will prefer the S10.

then there's the forks, personally I liked them

good luck

Yes, a test ride is in the future. Sadly, I only have (had?) one day this week where I could try one..... and then I got dragooned into being "grad-school research paper editor" for my wife on that day (please.... PLEASE let her Finals be over soon!)

I've never owned an automatic transmission in my life, so rowing the gears seems to be normal to me. I consider that a positive. The magic "auto-shift" thing that they have on their new bikes is honestly something that leaves me cold. Not something I'd really want-- it might make you a more technically capable rider in certain situations, but it might also take a lot of the fun out of using the left hand. I guess I'm just an old dog on that one. As far as the forks, I've never ridden a BMW, so it will be interesting. I think a test ride will help sort things out. And then it will just be a matter of finding the "right" bike (which I think ColoRider may have alrady have liberated!)

R.

 

[colorider]

Re: Gen 1? Gen 2? BMW? Need input.... please?

I'm honestly a bit puzzled about the throttle "snatchiness" that people report on the Gen 2-- when I test rode the non-ES '16, I really didn't notice it-- I guess the best analogy I can give would be the throttle between the B-737 and the A-320. They both do the same thing, but feel very different-- but you figure it out quickly enough and adapt how you use them to get what you want. So, call that a non-issue for me.

I haven't done much research on it yet (other than sit on it), but I wonder how those failures rate on the 2015+ GS. My thought would be to avoid the first model year and go for a 2015+ due to the heavier flywheel. I'll have to research failures within those parameters. I only know one person with that specific bike, but he's been completely satisfied with it. Pricewise, it seems that a new or near-new '15 ES plus add-ons (bags, pipe, flash, etc) is very comparable to a 2015+ GS with bags, bars and plate (IF you can wait for a "lost my job/can't ride for health reasons" bike). Say $16k for the ST-ES and ($16-18k for the Bimmer). They're close enough to consider-- although I absolutely agree that the scheduled maintenance costs will be much higher on the BMW. How much higher is a good question.
Suggestions? The only one I know of is the KTM 1190, but I'm just not feeling that one. I had chains on my old FZ-600, FZ-1 and R-6S, but those were sport bikes-- I don't remember them being much of an issue. Is there a big difference for an ADV? My current bike is belt driven, so that's what I'm familiar with.

So, I've been reading all morning (I'm on a layover in Chicago) and I guess if I had to make a decision today, I'd default to a Gen 2 ES (2014+, correct?) or a 2015+ R1200GS if I could find one for a good price.

Thanks for the thoughts! Very much appreciated.

R.

I only bring up the snatchiness because there is another thread hereabouts that make it out to be a major issue. I have not experienced it to that degree. Granted, it is more than my Gen 1, but I attribute it to the newness of the bike and that I have not trained myself to the throttle. All with time and miles.

As for other bikes..... There is a lot of adventure to be had with either of the two V-Stroms (650 or 1000). I've owned mulitple of both (I have a 650 For Sale) and they are great bikes. I'm hearing good things about the new Versys. I looked at a new Versys LT the other day and it seems to have a lot to offer. That said, I'd probably still go for the V-Strom mainly because of my past experience.

 

[HeliMark]

First, BMW's are great bikes. But if you have a major repair, which is going to be cheaper? And look at Consumer Reports on reliability.

Aviation wise, I put the Super Tenere like a Cessna, a dump truck at times that will do most anything and everything, just not glamorously. The BMW is like a Beechcraft, will do most anything, and handling quality is far better, but at a price.

Mark

 

[murdock2002]

I had the same question and started the following thread on ADVRIDER...even with the Hugh discounts I could realize on a new BMW, I went with the GEN 2 S10 for about $12,700....plenty to spare on farkles.

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/2015-bmw-r1200gs-or-2014-yamaha-super-tenere.1032678/

 

[flybigjet]

I had the same question and started the following thread on ADVRIDER...even with the Hugh discounts I could realize on a new BMW, I went with the GEN 2 S10 for about $12,700....plenty to spare on farkles.

http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/2015-bmw-r1200gs-or-2014-yamaha-super-tenere.1032678/

I saw that thread a while back-- not quite the same situation as he's buying the bike through military sales in Europe, but it does give you a lot to think about.

One thing I don't quite get is all of the supposed BMW horror stories. Admittedly, most are pre 2011, but I just can't fathom that if a manufacturer had THAT MANY consistent issues, would be able to stay in business, much less demand a premium. I wonder how the latest GS's are doing now that they've had a few years to iron out the wrinkes.

I guess my plan at the moment is to test ride the Bimmer and wait until the 2017's ST's come out-- maybe that will convince someone with a second gen ES w/ side bags and low miles that they absolutely positively need a new bike!

R.

 

[Davesax36]

I must admit, I'm still a bit enamored with the GSA(WC). However, I was not ready to spend $10k more (new vs new) to do that. I ended up getting a used Tenere, and am very happy with it. I am changing things I want to change, and happily riding it as often as possible (3000 miles in 5 weeks). A main draw for me to the GSA was the big tank. I have an aux tank for that, and will probably build a custom stock location tank to expand to a similar size as the GSA. I had no desire for the regular GS. I didn't like the way the tank/seat fit me.

 

[oldbear]

I would suggest you look hard at the S10. I've got a '13 bought new in June of '14 and it's been a great ride. That's the last year of the Gen 1 and mine's been faultless. The GEN 2 is reportedly even better, but either will do a great job. If you look, you can probably still find a new '13 or '14 at a killer price. You can put all the extra's you wish on and still be WAY under the price of a BASE, GS1200, and honestly, you will Never SEE a base GS-they all come loaded up at the dealer's.

Yamaha has a much larger dealer network which is a plus if you're traveling. Also, frankly, BMW has had some issues in recent years, primarily with the CANBUS system and with final drive units.. One of my best friends is a diehard BMW guy and currently has 5 various models, including a '12 GS1200. It's been a good bike, but it's had an ongoing electrical gremlin from the word go, and will occasionally have the headlight "go out" for no reason, only to come back on anywhere from 10 to 200 miles later. Neither my friend nor any of 3 BMW dealers have been able to find the cause. It just happens. Doesn't happen often, but when it does, it's not a good situation-happened to us on a road trip 3 years ago. Bike had about 16k on it at the time. Light went out. My friend was 340 miles from home and 250 miles from the closest dealer. He started for home with no headlight (in rain) and about 175 miles later the light came back on (for no apparent reason!). The Iron Butt Rally used to be a BMW affair, but for several years now it's been largely Yamaha. Don't get me wrong, I like BMW's a lot, I've owned a few and thoroughly enjoyed them, but for my $$ I'll be staying with Yamaha. If mine was stolen today, I'd be looking for another one like it. I have no issues whatever with Gen 1, but would like the electronic cruise on the newer bikes... Good luck and safe riding!

 

[oldbear]

May I suggest you take a look on Cycle Trader? There are a LOT of really good prices on new '16's as well as some real deals on '15's and a few '14s. I've seen '16ES models for less than $14,500-A comparably equipped new GS will cost you at least 6k more than that. I'd say shop for price and then do a fly n ride to get her home. A great way to get to know your new bike!

 

[flybigjet]

May I suggest you take a look on Cycle Trader? There are a LOT of really good prices on new '16's as well as some real deals on '15's and a few '14s. I've seen '16ES models for less than $14,500-A comparably equipped new GS will cost you at least 6k more than that. I'd say shop for price and then do a fly n ride to get her home. A great way to get to know your new bike!

Maybe I'm doing this wrong..... I've looked repeatedly on CycleTrader, and I'm just not seeing the "real deal's" on a '15ES-- a lot of them are posted at $16,190-- which is kind of ludicrous when there are '16ES's out there for $14.4 or so.

Also, are the prices on CycleTrader "teasers"? Or is there room for negotiation? And what about fees?

Honestly, if I could find an Out The Door price of $12,999 (or lower ) plus tax on a new '15ES within about 1200 miles of Denver, I'd buy it this week (well as long as it wasn't a CA bike!).

But, no joy to date. Best I've seen so far is $13,799 plus tax.

Am I smoking crack on the price?

Thanks!

R.

 

[adventurelounger]

Another perspective, from a former BMW F800GS owner, but current '13 Ténéré (new) and 1974 R75/6 (40-years used) rider.

I thought I had my heart set on a new WC GS. But I checked out the Ténéré and fell in love. And I was a little tired of schlepping to the BMW dealer for recalls on my F800, and read too many stories about similar issues with the newer GS.

My Ténéré experience has been flawless. Affordability notwithstanding, I just hate having to take a bike to the dealer, for service, recalls, niggles, whatever. It's such a PITA. My Ténéré has required NOTHING in almost 6,000 miles.

If you're interested, I wrote a blog post about my Ténéré bike shopping experience here: https://longitudeandgratitude.com/2014/05/19/horse-trading/

Enjoy! Either decision will bring joy!

 

[MNs10]

I had a gen 1 super T and now have a R1200 WC...

The Tenere is the worst bike I've had for DIY maintenance and I've had (out of the ADV category) the 650 strom/WR250r/S Tenere/Explorer 1200 xc/KLR/R1200 GS. You can do the valves and change the spark plugs on the BMW in the same amount of time as changing the spark plugs on the Tenere...Doing the valves on the Tenere is time a consuming job and the dealerships around here didn't even want to do mine when I Inquired. Read up on here, more than a few folks have damaged the motor trying to DIY.

There isn't a bike in the history of motorcycles that depreciates faster than the Tenere. The 2012's went for 14,500 and here you can buy a brand new 13 for 9,000. That may not be a big deal for you...me, I was keeping bikes about one year and trading up until I bought the 2014 R1200GS -I can't find anything that compares.

My R1200 GS has been flawless, my Tenere spent more time in the shop than anything I've owned and I'm not alone. You came to this site and expected bias, I chimed in because some people can deal with the truth. Go ride them both and buy what you like. If you decide on a 1st gen Tenere there are some things that need to be done to make this bike like it should have been from the factory...do your research. Also, Yamaha has a 1 year warranty, BMW is 3.

Good luck on your search.

 

[rider33]

Re: Gen 1 or Gen 2 ST? Oil or water BMW? Need input pleasee

the BMW's are very fine bikes, they are also a lot more trouble to own IMHO. Part of that is the cost of entry, part of that is the more limited dealer network, and part of that is the higher risk problems (check Consumer Reports or just about any owner thread). It has always been amusing to me that the biggest thing S10 owners tend to complain about is broken spokes, BMW's tend to have much more exciting (and expensive) problems when they go wrong. That said, as the originator of the type (first GS came out in the mid 80's) they always tend to be a step ahead. Only you can decide if that last 15 or 20% of performance/features is worth it to you.

Me, this is a touring bike. I don't want to have any problems anywhere and if I did, I want there to be a dealer in the next town, not just next state. It also helps that these things just very rarely seem to break or demand much of anything from you, they just work. Having paid way to much for repairs on electrical trickery over the years (see BMW), I'm not a fan of the ES either (added weight and one more thing to go wrong). I would strongly suggest tho if you are going to get an ST10 for travel you get a Gen. 2 bike, the cruise is just that good and makes a HUGE difference when you start to pile up 500+ mile days. Also get a Madstad bracket and a bigger shield (Parabellum are quite nice).

I guess I would liken this decision to women: the higher strung, higher maintenance types are a bit more thrilling at first but can be a major PITA to live with down the line. Your better bet is the slightly less flashy tomboy who likes to go fishing, prefers jeans to couture, and somehow always makes you feel all is right with the world. Both are pretty, it's just that in one the pretty runs deep....

 

[stomp347]

I've had friends ride my Tenere and then bought one. Buy the S-10, you will not regret it.

 

[Koinz]

I have a Gen1 Tenere and it's been great. I have upgraded mine with the clutch basket, CPU Flash and Suspension. So, the only thing I'm missing is Cruise Control for the most part. If you're looking at a Super Tenere, focus more on the Gen2's, they seen to resolve the issues of the first gen models. The GS's are great bikes too. I can't speak to their reliability, but I'm hearing that they are a pretty solid bike. What sold me was price, legendary Yamaha reliability and dealer support.
I did have a BMW R1200 CLC and I ride with a number of other BMW riders. Some had problems and some didn't. The ones that did were usually clutch slave going bad and final drive issues. Most of the guys I ride with have had their bikes for more than 5 years and put lot's of miles on them, so in my opinion they are the people I ask about problems, not the people that own a bike for 1 year and sell it.

My Tenere is now 5 years old with 37000 miles. It has been maintained and I have no worries about riding it anywhere.

I'm not a brand whore, I like all bikes and have owned a vstrom dl1k, klr 650, bmw, honda (cb450 and 550four) and tenere.

They all have their issues. As everyone here says. Buy what you like. Ride Safe.

 

[flybigjet]

Thank you all for the responses..... very informative and much to think about.

My next step is to find time (harder than you'd think) to ride a GS. I suspect I've already made my decision, but I do need to ride the GS just to do "due diligence".

The thing that gets me, irrespective of bike, riding style, manufacturer, etc. is that there a just SO MANY reports of the BMW bikes being..... finicky. Admittedly, there are more GS's than ST's on the road, but still. I think that the potential for maintenance costs, getting stuck somewhere, and the like would be a consistent worry. The ST on the other hand seems pretty bomb proof.

Now, the problem is that I just can't find any for sale at a price I'm willing to spend. Poor timing on my part I suppose.

So, if anyone has any information or suggestions on pricing, I'd appreciate it. I've looked on CycleTrader, but $16.4 for a 2015 doesn't seem like much of a deal to me.

Thanks again.

R.

 

[oldbear]

Maybe I'm doing this wrong..... I've looked repeatedly on CycleTrader, and I'm just not seeing the "real deal's" on a '15ES-- a lot of them are posted at $16,190-- which is kind of ludicrous when there are '16ES's out there for $14.4 or so.

Also, are the prices on CycleTrader "teasers"? Or is there room for negotiation? And what about fees?

Honestly, if I could find an Out The Door price of $12,999 (or lower ) plus tax on a new '15ES within about 1200 miles of Denver, I'd buy it this week (well as long as it wasn't a CA bike!).

But, no joy to date. Best I've seen so far is $13,799 plus tax.

I just took a (very brief) look on Cycle Trader. There are several shown that are decent prices. Examples: a 15 (not ES) 10,797 in Herrin Illinois; a 16 (not ES) 13,450 out the door in Romney, WV; best I saw on an ES (and I was just looking at the first few pages) was s 16 for 14,199 in Pellham, AL. If I was serious, I'd call these guys, plus the Yamaha folks in Lietchfield, Ill; Cullman, AL, and Harrodsburg, KY and ask 'em for their "best price" out the door on the bike you want. Good luck!

Am I smoking crack on the price?

Thanks!

R.