Dumped the bike, any pointers?

[num]

So, I dumped my bike going downhill and hit a patch of large round stones, about fist sized.

Managed to slow to a crawl before i actually tipped, but i was going smoothly down the mountain, then the bike got out of control and fast, front wheel was bouncing and sliding (nothing was wet, just large loose stones) bike tipped and there was no damage to anything except my pride. Now, I've ridden this road on my wr250 countless times, sometimes as fast as 40, the tenere was doing well but then somehow just felt like it got a mind of it's own.
Bike is completely stock.

anyone with tips on how to negotiate something like this easier? It's 2 ruts filled with stones with a grassy centerline that almost comes to a point so thats impossible to ride the center.

attached is a pic at what was on top of that hill, peaceful, beautiful relaxation.

 

[Koinz]

Ride it like it was your 250 ;D ;D.

Seriously though. Did you try to air down the tires a little. I don't do a whole lot of off rode with my bike, so I don't have that much experience with off the beat'n path.

 

[num]

Good point, I was at highway tire pressure, it got bouncy fast.

I still feel like technique was wrong.

 

[Dirt_Dad]

For what it is the Tenere is a terrific off pavement bike. But it is a 600lb+, heavy beast with suspension that works very well on the highway, where it is also extremely stable at speeds over 80 MPH in a good strong crosswind.

I would think that compared to your WR it would feel like bloated pig and handle like a real handful in anything rough. My guess is you're very accustom to a light, nimble, zippy dirt bike with excellent dirt suspension, and you're expecting something remotely similar from the Tenere. It's a great bike, but it's just not going to respond the way the WR will.

If I were facing the situation you described I would think I'd be standing up every chance I got on the S10. Riding as slow as I could over various terrain and learning how to shift the weight around as the heavy bike demands. Slow forces you to really adjust to the bike. You'll get it. It's worth the effort.

Nice problem to have...both a Tenere and a WR. Sounds like a great combination.

 

[oldtramp]

Looks like two helmets in your picture, the beast requires twice as much muscle off road with a passenger and some k60s as well, What a nice spot for a break.

 

[RED CAT]

If the downhill was slow and slippery, it could have been the ABS kicking in, refusing to let you completely slow down. :lamp:

 

[Leftlane]

I have fallen over three times all of them at low speed going down a step grade. The first time crossing a sand bar on to a river bed with fist size round rocks the front wheel sunk a came to a stop and slowly tipped over no damage.
The second was on a power line road the surface was wet rock and sandy soil I came to a step section and didn't have enough room to turn around. So on the throttle and it ripped a strip up the side of the road into a small clearing. I walked back down and cleared some of foot ball size rock . Going down I tried to keep my weight as far back as possible but the front end caught a soft rut stopped me dead and I slowly tipped over this time with my riding boot under the foot peg and the bike not touching the ground.
The last time was in the campground on the way to Whitehorse up a hill sharp turn in soft crushed rock over I went not so slowly.This time scratches on the side bag and engine guard .It was at the end of a 830KM day in the rain in hind sight I should have left the bike park and carried my stuff.
This is not a dirt bike but it is remarkable where it can go with a little practice.

 

[BadKarmaPa]

I have 2 techniques for such places.
One is to keep speed enough that I'm not in danger of falling over due to lack of speed. I don't mean 40mph, but over 5. If you have to fight for balance while fighting the front wheel bouncing and jerking around it's a loosing battle.
Technique two is to come to a complete stop at the top and with both feet on the ground use the front brake to just slowly saddle walk the bike down. But if the hill is too steep, loose or slippery for the front brake to hold the bike you have no choise but to stand on the pegs and let her roll.
This is and example of the "Let Her Roll" technique

BMW1200GS in free fall
Be very carful about using engine braking on loose slippery down grades. This can cause the rear wheel to lock stalling the engine and putting you into a skid. Keep your fingers on the clutch.

 

[NoMorBills]

Two ways to do it.. 1 go for it (dont go slow or fast) 2 Walk it down

 

[SisuTen]

If I were facing the situation you described I would think I'd be standing up every chance I got on the S10. Riding as slow as I could over various terrain and learning how to shift the weight around as the heavy bike demands. Slow forces you to really adjust to the bike. You'll get it. It's worth the effort.

Nice problem to have...both a Tenere and a WR. Sounds like a great combination.

+1, When you stand up on your bike you transfer almost all of your body weight from the seat to the footpegs. Imagine putting 215# (my case) about 12-15 inches lower on the frame of the bike. Lowering the center of gravity always adds stability. This is why trials bikes don't have useable seats, you always stand up riding them. They also don't go fast by design.

Paul

 

[num]

Quite a few very good suggestions,
Yes, I did ride up the hill 2up and it was fine, but going down I didn't even attempt it once i felt how unruly the bike was feeling.
I will have to try standing up more. Looks like more excuses to get back there and ride!

I'll post results, hah

 

[protondecay123]

I would say that if you ride a WR, you should be fairly accustomed to the basic dirt road riding technique. Big Gravel > slow down and try to ride through the shallowest part. One big difference besides weight of the Super Ten compared to the WR is the amount of tire contact patch per kilogram as well. I don't know what tires you run on your WR but 606's and Mt-21's are pretty common around here. I run MX-51's .
Unfortunately they don't make 606's or MT-21's for the Super Ten. If you ride a lot of gravel roads with the Super Ten, I would use a K60 as a minimum. If you are riding a lot of dirt road I would look at TKC's, Karoo's, Kenda Big Blocks, Mitas E-07 or 9's etc. Eemsreno swears by the Big Blocks, but they don't last long. Anything that has a lot of traction doesn't. The tires can make a big difference in Dirt Stablity. If you do air them down I wouldn't go below 30 lbs or so. That's a 580lb bike there. IMHO.

 

[spklbuk]

Know when to fold 'em. No shame in backtracking if and when the time comes.

 

[MrTwisty]

This may or may not help, but I almost dropped mine yesterday, and while the circumstances were different, there were also some similarities. We were riding some fairly tame forest service roads when we came upon a section of the road where the Forestry Service decided to do some "maintenance" and put down a thick layer of tennis ball sized rock. Luckily, we were going up hilll, so I slowed before hitting the rocks, then applied gentle throttle going into the rocks. Well, it seemed like the right technique, but the Tenere began wallowing like a big fat pig as soon as it hit the deep gravel. I managed to save it, but it wasn't pretty and it scared the crap out of my wife.

My "save" meant that I was able to stop and put my feet down without dropping the bike, but only because I had previously slowed down significantly, and this is where I may be able to help. I think the key here is to recognize sections that may be a problem and slow to a speed where you can manage the risk. The worst thing you can do is go barreling into a difficult situation only to find out that either you or the bike simply isn't capable of handling the situation. If you had come to a complete stop, or almost, you may have been able to handle the down hill, or at least you would have given yourself a better chance.

I agree that proper technique is important, and others who are probably more skilled than I have offered some good advice on that subject. My advice is to err on the side of caution with a 600lb. bike. The WR is a pig by dirt bike standards, the S10 is a whale, and if you are loaded and 2-up, it is a blue whale. Ride it accordingly.

FWIW - my understanding on downhill technique for dirt bikes (this doesn't necessarily apply to a bike with ABS and linked brakes):
1. Get back. Sit on the tail light if you can.
2. Modulate the front brake. If you feel the front wheel slide, let off a little, but use as much front brake as possible.
3. Pulse the rear brake on and off. Since you don't have much feel with you boots it is difficult to modulate, so don't try. You'll get more out of the rear brake by pulsing it.

Hope this helps.

 

[Dallara]

+1, When you stand up on your bike you transfer almost all of your body weight from the seat to the footpegs. Imagine putting 215# (my case) about 12-15 inches lower on the frame of the bike. Lowering the center of gravity always adds stability. This is why trials bikes don't have useable seats, you always stand up riding them. They also don't go fast by design.

Paul

I'm sorry... But standing on the pegs does *NOT* lower the "center of gravity". It *RAISES* it. It does decouple your body mass from the seat, and allows that mass to affect the handling of the motorcycle differently, but it most definitely does *NOT* lower the COG or center of mass. That's a common misconception.

I don't want to cause the thread to meander off the OP's questions and subject, but I also don't want to see inaccurate information confuse anybody.

Dallara




~

 

[limey]

I'm sorry... But standing on the pegs does *NOT* lower the "center of gravity". It *RAISES* it. It does decouple your body mass from the seat, and allows that mass to affect the handling of the motorcycle differently, but it most definitely does *NOT lower the COG or center of mass. That's a common misconception.

I don't want the cause the thread to meander off of the OP's questions and subject, but I also don't want to see inaccurate information confuse anybody.

Dallara ::026::













Standing On The Pegs
Does NOT lower the Center of Gravity

By: James R. Davis


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Apparently somebody has posted a message on some news list that stimulated quite a few e-mail messages to me seeking confirmation of another bit of folklore that is pure rubbish. The claim is that if you stand on your pegs you lower the bike's Center Of Gravity so that you can have better control of it.

The thought is that because you take weight off the seat and place it, instead, on the pegs, that you have lowered the Center Of Gravity as a result. Wrong! [Well, wrong if you STAND in order to do it. If you merely put a bit more of your weight on the pegs while remaining on the seat you will shift the Center of Gravity VERY MODESTLY (insignificantly) down.] (In order to put weight on your pegs you must move some part of your body downward.)

Consider: If the bike was at a dead stop and you were sitting in the saddle all the weight would be distributed onto the contact patches of your tires. That is, if the total weight of the bike (including you) was 1,000 pounds, there would be about 600 pounds on the rear tire and about 400 pounds on the front tire. Now, if you stood up on the pegs and measured the weight on each tire you would find the total remains at 1,000 pounds. However, it would probably be closer to 550 pounds on the rear tire and 450 on the front. i.e., you have probably moved the CG forward, but you have not reduced it one ounce.

It is clear that you DO change where the CG is by standing on the pegs. At least you now know that it typically moves forward (at least it does if the pegs are closer to the front of the bike than where your butt usually rests on the seat.)

When you sat on the seat you RAISED the combined CG of the bike (including you) as compared to where it was when you were not on the bike at all.

Now, as you stand on the pegs rather than sit on the seat, you RAISE the combined CG even further!

It is true, however, that you increase your ability to quickly lean the bike in this new posture, and you do not have to suffer the shock (at least the indignity) of that seat slapping your butt when the bike bounces over those railroad tracks.

This is true because you have, when standing on the pegs, placed your body torso on top of another set of 'springs' - your knees. Your body is now 'double sprung weight' as a result. You have, in other words, allowed your body to move in another direction than the bike moves. (It should be clear that the body will follow the average direction of travel of the bike, of course.)

For those who still misunderstand, if you stand on your pegs as you ride through a set of twisties you know, (I hope), that you will have LESS CONTROL and could not negotiate those curves as fast as you could if you were sitting in your saddle. This, because your combined CG is HIGHER. Your bike would not have to lean farther than it would if you were sitting in the seat to manage the same curves at the same speed, and would actually lean slightly less because of the width of you tires, but you would have to move more mass a greater distance if the CG were higher.

 

[Dallara]

~


Here's a nice, clear, concise, and easily understood explanation of the relationship between COG, COM, and sitting or standing on the pegs... Complete with illustrations.

http://www.msgroup.org/Tip.aspx?Num=207&Set=176-210

And if you ever want to really explore motorcycling handling dynamics in depth the best place in the world to do is at:

http://www.dinamoto.it/

Another great source of information on motorcycle design and handling is Tony Foale's site at:

http://www.tonyfoale.com/

And his book is an absolute *must read* if you want to really understand what's going on underneath you when you ride.

Just FYI...

Dallara



~

 

[MikeBear]

Oh yea. GoldWing is great example ::025::

 

[DubbleJay]

~


Here's a nice, clear, concise, and easily understood explanation of the relationship between COG, COM, and sitting or standing on the pegs... Complete with illustrations.


~

Is that standing or passing a bit of wind? )

 

[Siseneg]

That much weight running downhill in a bed of cue ball gravel is going to be a challenge. The front will knife in just like sand. Then, when you feel it slipping the normal reaction is to slow down. tossing more weight forward. Can't tell much from my own S10 wxperience yet, but I'd be inclined to be already slowed if you could, stand up and hike the weight way aft, kind of like on sand. And I do agree with lower pressures to let the tires flex around a little more rather than bounce off. Worth exactly 2 censt . . . maybe ::017::