Data help about TFX shock (not solved at all)

ord13

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#1
Hi all,

I own a 2011 ST, and I 've changed my old Touratech rear shock for a TFX Adventure bought at OTR, according to my personal specs (weight, use, luggages, etc...), as all other aftermarket suspensions manufacturers.

I've received my new shock and there's no indication about any data about static or rider sag in the attached user's manual, neither in distance nor in percentage as it is usually the case with this kind of material.
Several mail exchanges with OTR just taught me that they knew no more than me, and TFX didn't (yet ?...) answer to me. :(

So if someone here knows where I can find this missing information (useful as much as rightfull from a certain sales price, let's close the parenthesis...), I could so begin to make basics with settings of my new shock without asking myself if I do it right or not.

Thanx in advance to those who have read me, n keep on smiling bananas when riding STs :cool::cool:
 
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Checkswrecks

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#2
Till the gurus start to answer, start by finding out how much wheel travel the spring allows from full compression to full extension and the starting rule of thumb for static sag is about 30-33%. The full stroke of the Yamaha OEM is 7.5 inches stroke, so a stock shock is at about 2.5 inches. Ride it hard and increase if it bottoms too often and vice versa.

As for the shock adjustments in compression and rebound, I'd start a third from softest then ride it hard and adjust from there.
 

ord13

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#3
Thanx for answering, but my old Touratech/Tractive was given by manufacturer a maximum 20-25 mm static sag for 190 mm total shock travel, so 30-33 % are not the standard rule for every shock (60-65 mm in that case).
Sry to post measurements in mm, but in France inches are not really in use, nessuno è perfetto ;)
 

jrusell

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#4
The 30-33% Checkswrecks is referring to is rider sag, not static sag.

The 20-25mm static sag(some will call this bike sag or free sag) is correct.
A good rule of thumb is 10-15% for Free/static sag, For Rider sag --- 25-30%
30% for the Tenere is 57mm. Some like a bit more some less.

Personally I shoot for 30% (57mm) rider sag. My static sag (bike only) is 20mm.
 
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Checkswrecks

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#5
Glad that jrusell got my meaning and sorry not to mention "with rider" but to me it makes most sense to set up a bike for the rider who most likely will have their butt on it in use.
 

ord13

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#7
Thanx all for your help, as everyone seems to agree on that I think of just adjusting rider sag at 30% and it should be fine to begin.

One lil' more if I may abuse...
...
... okay so I abuse ;)

D'u think it's preferable to set the sag with only rider fully equipped, or also with the average weight as luggage usually carried on the bike (e.g 15 kgs in a top box and 5 kgs in a tank bag) ?
I ride mostly "trail" use (paved or not paved, poor tarmacs, trails, easy rocky tracks, mud sometimes, but no real enduro, excessive sandies or extreme adventure).

Thanx again :)
 

jrusell

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#8
Set it as you ride it.
I check mine with my top box and a few tools as this is how I normally ride during the week. If you normally have 15kg in top box and 5 in the tank bag set it up like that.

Before my last trip I spent some time and checked and then adjusted my preload for the full load of hard bags plus top box and full camping gear trying to get my sag back to 30% as normal.
I write the new preload settings on the wall in the garage, so for my next trip it only takes a few minutes to adjust preload front and rear with no need to remeasure every trip.

I also usually put a small piece of tape on my remote preload adjuster so I can see where I need to set the preload for fully loaded. Makes adjustment quick and simple before and after a trip.
 

ord13

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#10
I answer to my post with new informations from TFX suspensions support who have answered to my second mail, digital hazards I guess ;), just in case it helps.

"Hi Patrick (yes it's me)
Thank you for your email.
Unfortunately we don’t receive that much information from OTR.
Only the fact that your weight was 100kg. We used a spring of 160N/mm and 15mm PL.
This is the correct spring for your weight.

The sag should be:
Free Sag R1 - R2 = 42 mm
and
Ride Height R1 - R3 = 73 mm

If you have any questions at all please don’t hesitate to ask.

Best regards, Mit freundlichem Gruss, Met vriendelijke groet,
Hans-Dieter Fischer"


So to resume the answer, they din't gave me a 30% rider sag but an almost 40%, 73 mm vs 57 mm, thus 20 mm difference, which is not nothing IMO.
As I'm not a suspension specialist, I've send TFX another mail asking about these 20 mm difference, I wait for another answer and I 'll post here the result if there's one.
 

jrusell

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#11
Simple answer........ignore their email.

The Ted porter Video is great at explaining what you should be looking for.
73mm sag the bike will sit low and remember you are losing 40% of your suspension travel just sitting I the garage.

Brand doesn't matter, use his suggestions. I would go 25% way before I would ever go 40%.

In my opinion they at least got the spring rate correct.
I am 10 lbs less than you and I also have a 160N spring on my Yacugar shock. I get good sag numbers and am happy with the nice firm ride with 57mm sag. Not harsh, firm stable not wallowing like the soft stock spring rate.

I was lucky when I picked up my shock used and it already had the 160N spring installed. If I was to buy new I would have went up one rate to 170.

Mototrek has a 4th video in their suspension playlist as well. If you haven't seen it give it a view. They have lots of good stuff to watch.
 
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ord13

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#12
Thanx for answering and sharing your personal experience :cool:

I was doubting too about these sags settings, and the last answer from TFX seems to agree with us two and the majority here in this post, but I still have some doubts about their average knowledge of the products they talk about, plz see below :

"Hi Patrick (yes it's still me)
Thank you for your email.
I am sorry for my mistake because I looked at the wrong motorcycle.
The measurement of OTR (which came from us) is correct. 57mm!
How much travel do you have?


Best regards, Mit freundlichem Gruss, Met vriendelijke groet,
Hans-Dieter Fischer"


Indeed and without wishing to be slanderous, how can TFX know the "correct" 57 mm rider sag (30% of the 190 mm total shock travel), and in the same message ask me for the total shock travel of my bike (yet specified in one of my previous posts with them) ?
They don't know it but they're able to gimme the correct sag not in percentage but in millimeters ? o_O
Great revelation here tonight : Merlin is not dead, he worx at TFX !! :D


So to resume (!), OTR didn't answer clearly and TFX didn't too :confused:, but TFX give now the same information that OTR gave me previously but while saying in the same phrase that the OTR information came from TFX while having answered something else based on false data yet properly informed by me before, Wow Wow Wow !!!... :eek::eek::eek:
Is there some1 behind the sales who really knows something in suspensions basics ?....


I would not be too unpleasant (although spending more than two-thirds of my salary to ask to myself if I did not just throw bucks in the pockets of the wrong people does not put me in happy mood, let's close the parenthesis...) but seriously, from the client side (me in this case) it seems that some suspensions developers' job is just an almost total erratic marshmallow business, and I sincerely hope not to have to deal one day with their after sales service o_O
Something is rotten in the kingdom of non-OEM :(

The moral of this story is to no longer trust anyone who makes or sells that kind of technical part unless you personally know any sect guru specialized in real support and knowledge, and not just in sales ...

Ahem ...

I dream a little maybe... :oops:
 
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jrusell

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#13
I have been in similar situations and it is annoying for sure. Dealing with sales/customer service is always a pain not matter what the product or service. Forget it and move on is my advice.

Look at it this way. You have a very good quality shock that is sprung correctly. I see posts all the time where guys have spent a ton on a new shock and it is way under sprung out of the box. They can't believe it's wrong because it is a nice color and they paid a premium for that.

I wasn't familiar with the TFX brand as it's not something I see here in Canada. After looking it over I realized it's one of the Dutch brands. They have a very good reputation and it seems there are 4 or 5 brands that use a lot of common parts to build their own shocks.

Hyperpro, yacugar, TFX , Wilbers and some others are all using common parts. I think this is a great thing for us customers as it gives us many more options for after sale service.

Good luck with the shock I am sure you will be happy with it.
 
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ord13

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#14
Hi again (I know I've marked my post as solved, but...)

After setting the correct sags on my bike (thanx again for your help here) I pressed on the rear of my bike "just to see" and it seems that hydraulics are just set to transform my Tenere in a good ol' Transalp with OEM shock and this famous flabby feeling that all the world's sensitive buttocks appreciate for generations. :rolleyes:

So after re-reading and re-verifying the settings given by the Off-The-Road and corresponding to (they said) my personal specs, I realized that the hydraulic settings used on my TFX shock were the opposite of those used on my previous Touratech shock (why I replaced it remains a total mystery ...).

Let me explain :
- Lo comp is set softer than Hi comp, while on my previous Touratech it was the opposite and most logical IMO (Hi comp softer than Lo comp, so high speed for potholes and slow speed for brakings or bumps at speed).
- Rebound seems too soft too (despite a setting of 15 clicks on a total of 50) but I'm not 100% sure without some test rides, so to see later...

For information, I put here the maximum clicking range of all hydraulics :
- Hi comp total clicks : 35
- Lo comp total clicks : 35
- Rebound total clicks : 50

And attached pic of the settings that came with the shock :

TFX steup.jpg

Here I am now, and as I no longer have any confidence in anyone at OTR or TFX, real life riders experiences are more credible for me than all "specialized" sellers' speech, so plz feel free to make your own opinion and share if you want to your own comments and thoughts, any (new) help is welcome :cool:
 

jrusell

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#15
I was having a similar issue with mine. Added rebound damping to try and slow the rebound but didn't make a huge difference. Bike felt like it was getting pitched forward too quickly when letting off the gas and that it needed more rebound in the shock. In the garage pushing on the rear it was as you stated. Rebounding quicker than desired and adjustments were not slowing it down as I wanted.

My fix was to add compression damping (both low speed and high speed). My theory is this helps keep the rear from going too far into the stroke and therefore easier for the rebound damping to handle the stored energy. In the garage it is noticeable, on the road the difference was huge.
My initial settings were as follows,
Low comp 30 available, set at 17 out from full clockwise
High Comp 30 Available, set 16 out from full clockwise
Rebound 50 available , set 27 out

Final settings
low comp= 11 out, high comp= 11 out, rebound= 15 out.

Maybe try something similar. LC 14 out, HC 14out and leave your rebound at 15.

My shock is yacugar and it appears the use a similar but not exact remote reservoir.
I will be sending my shock out this winter for a service and will probably ask to have the rebound and compression damping stacks revalved to increase the initial damping, so I can move my adjusters back more to the middle of the adjustment range.
Not something you should need to do with a new shock, but in a couple of years when you send it out for service you could try.

John

DSC00679.JPG
 

ord13

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#16
Wow, crystal clear and well-argumented, George's "what else" is under level here !! :)
Many thanx again, I will probably determine "thanx" as an axiom, it will save time in the future :D

I did not really believe in forums before I knew this one, and I have to admit that all the help I've received here is a thousand times more useful than all the nonsense blah-blah given by other more professional people.

I so gonna try some average settings based on jrussell's opinion, and I'll post here the result in case it may help some.

Bye for now :)
 
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ord13

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#17
Hello again,

Following the TFX soap, I've another problem with my TFX shock.
It seems that the Hi Speed and Lo speed compression settings do not have the same fields of effectiveness for TFX and for most of other suspensions manufacturers, e.g Ohlins, and they are even completely opposite :eek:

TFX Compression Settings :

TFX HS-LS.jpg


Ohlins Compression setings :

Ohlins HS-LS.jpg

So once more I have no reliable basic data, all I have until now from TFX is a big hole full-filled with quicksand.
If anyone had any idea about this new nonsense, any help is more than ever welcome :)
 
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#18
Hi there Ord, I personally would not overthink this too much. Just install the shock and ride it. Standard sag numbers are only a baseline and can vary a whole bunch from rider to rider.

I normally set my clickers to the middle and adjust from there. If you are not familiar with suspension setup then there is an easy way to get it dialed in to your liking. Have a favorite loop setup with all the types of riding you do. Set clickers and preload to full soft and do a loop. Then set the clickers and preload to full hard and do a loop. Then put everything in the middle and do it again. This way you will know how the suspension reacts to different settings.

From the middle position you can fine tune the clickers to get it just right. For novice mortals like myself, 3 click increment adjustments are what we notice. If you are a pro level rider then 1-2 click adjustments are enough.
 

WJBertrand

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#19
I don't see how damping settings can affect ride height, that highlighted comment seems to be in error. Also high and low speed damping settings refer to the speed of shock movement, not the speed of the motorcycle. A sharp edge or a pot hole would invoke the high speed damping whereas gentle rises and dips, as well as suspension loads as a result of cornering would involve low speed damping. Unsettled wobbling or excessive movement going into and out of twisty corners would call for more low speed damping.

In the end suspension is highly individual, the factory or supplier recommended settings should be considered only as a starting point. You have to adjust from there to suit your preferences.
 

ord13

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#20
In the end suspension is highly individual, the factory or supplier recommended settings should be considered only as a starting point. You have to adjust from there to suit your preferences.
Hi WJ, I totally agree with you, this is precisely this kind of information that TFX never gave me, and the OTR recommended settings are just not suitable at all with my specs and my bike's (custom presets my foot).
The best starting points are given here in this thread instead of being provided by the seller(s), and in my case fortunately the forums exist and especially this one :cool:

Hi there Ord, I personally would not overthink this too much. Just install the shock and ride it. Standard sag numbers are only a baseline and can vary a whole bunch from rider to rider.

Thanx 4 how-to Chris, sags are no more the problem now, thanks to jrussel n others :)

I've had in the past mounted some aftermarket shocks on my previous bikes, mainly EMC, Ohlins, WPS, Touratech and Hyperpro, and ALL these shocks came with a dedicated data, and another basic and more general data just intended to be a standard starting point when changing the characteristics of the motorcycle (rider's weight, luggage, use, pillion on/off, that kind of mods...), and TFX/OTR are the only that sent me a shock with absolutely no credible data except some settings that are so sketchy that no one can ride with without legitimate concern (flabby bike, see previous posts).

Maybe this product is serious, well made and powerful (YouTube is full of examples of satisfied users), but in my case the staff(s) behind the brand(s) seems to be just good at selling junk with minimum effort :(

Anyway, thank you all for your help, I still do not know what compression setting affects what ('cause the owner's manual suggests that HS and LS work inversely to other brands, except perhaps for typical cross or enduro suspensions whose settings are similar to TFX's), but I already have enough to keep busy my screwdriver for a while from now :):D
 
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