Charging and battery check

[Jono49]

Just got my S10 yesterday, and after a run this morning I decided to check the health of the battery and charging circuit, So for ease of use I used a volt meter I have plugged into the cigarrete lighter in my van, and my heart sunk when I seen the readings...all over the shop! I thought FFS Yamaha dont have REC/REG issues what's going on here? so took the side panel off and checked direct to battery, and normal service was resumed ::012:: 12.68v after standing a while, so bang on the money there! charging output 13.8-14.2v i'm happy with that as well, I guess I'll just have to live with the lazy starting until I get a 14ah battery! i surmise that's the common fix?

 

[Cycledude]

Yes i believe the starter Yamaha used is simply not powerful enough, some folks have tried the bigger battery and claim that helps alot , when i get a new battery it will be one rated with more cold cranking amps.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I sure don't see why you've mentioned in a couple of threads that you think the starter is not big enough. I've been on this forum and the ADV one since before the bike came to the US and can not think of a single person mentioning that they had to replace a starter. That is the fate of small starters, when they overheat. The fact is that the starter needs to push two great big 600 cc pistons and the rest of the engine. To do this takes a lot of current and that current comes from the battery, which we DO know could be improved upon.


And which is what Jono has already figured out.

 

[WJBertrand]

I think Yamaha has geared the starter lower than what would be used for a multi cylinder bike. The lower gearing gives the starter a torque advantage to help move those two big 600cc cylinders. The low gearing means the engine doesn't sound like it's turning over very fast.


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[Jono49]

Whilst were on topic, is there a battery with slightly wider dimensions with a higher AH rating and CC amps and would fit under the cover ok? the battery is held in with the usual rubber strap like most bikes so it would stretch to accommodate a wider battery!

 

[Cycledude]

I sure don't see why you've mentioned in a couple of threads that you think the starter is not big enough. I've been on this forum and the ADV one since before the bike came to the US and can not think of a single person mentioning that they had to replace a starter. That is the fate of small starters, when they overheat. The fact is that the starter needs to push two great big 600 cc pistons and the rest of the engine. To do this takes a lot of current and that current comes from the battery, which we DO know could be improved upon.


And which is what Jono has already figured out.

Well if Yamaha felt it was ok to use a battery that doesn't have enough cold cranking amps to save a few bucks they may have also skimped on the starter, but yes the fact that you claim no one has had to replace a starter yet suggests the starter might be good enough and just needs a more powerful battery like the Yuasa YTZ14S which is supposed to have something like 20-30 more cold cranking amps than the stock battery. http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1312.R1.TR11.TRC2.A0.H0.Xyuasa.TRS1&_nkw=Yuasa+YTZ14S+battery&_sacat=0

 

[AVGeek]

Whilst were on topic, is there a battery with slightly wider dimensions with a higher AH rating and CC amps and would fit under the cover ok? the battery is held in with the usual rubber strap like most bikes so it would stretch to accommodate a wider battery!

Post right below yours has the info. The Yuasa YTZ14S is the same physical size as the stock battery, but has more CCA available.

 

[Jono49]

My stock battery is in good health, as I did a more comprehensive test this afternoon, 12.56 volts cold, ignition on, 12.04 voltage drop on start up was just over 1 volt which is spot on and proves the integrity of the starter circuit and associated wiring are OK, and the conclusion is Yamaha are tight bastids and scrimped on the battery doing a quick check online, it looks like £10 difference in price between one with 210 CCA and one with 240CCA times that with the units ::022:: turned out, it will make a pretty tidy sum to help pay Rossi's wage bill ::26::

 

[Jono49]

Just bit the bullet and ordered an TYZ14S from fleabay, here's hoping the 20 odd more cranking amps make the difference?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-YUASA-YTZ14S-YTZ-14S-HONDA-ETC-QUALITY-BATTERY/170939150734?_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37123%26meid%3D579ebd2713f84b938e09e9b1489611fd%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D170692350239

 

[Cycledude]

Just bit the bullet and ordered an TYZ14S from fleabay, here's hoping the 20 odd more cranking amps make the difference?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-YUASA-YTZ14S-YTZ-14S-HONDA-ETC-QUALITY-BATTERY/170939150734?_trksid=p2047675.c100623.m-1&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D37123%26meid%3D579ebd2713f84b938e09e9b1489611fd%26pid%3D100623%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D170692350239

I am anxiously looking forward to hearing how the more powerful battery works out for you ! So far everyone ive heard of claims its a nice improvement.

 

[RonH]

I like the YTZ14S and am possibly dreaming, but believe the hard start saga so well discussed can be eliminated by using the stronger battery. The starter draws so much power I believe the voltage level drops enough to not have reliable starts with the YTZ12S. Extra 20 or 30CCA could be the simple fix by using a better battery.

 

[Checkswrecks]

I like the YTZ14S and am possibly dreaming, but believe the hard start saga so well discussed can be eliminated by using the stronger battery. The starter draws so much power I believe the voltage level drops enough to not have reliable starts with the YTZ12S. Extra 20 or 30CCA could be the simple fix by using a better battery.

It's speculation and edumacated guess, but I've long wondered if hard starts were related to the low voltage which can exist for the ECU when the amps are going to the starter.

 

[Jono49]

I don't think the the ignition/ fuel injection circuits are starved of current as most ecu's function using M-volts, after the fuel pump has primed you will notice the headlights are off to save current drop there, everthing is spared for the starter turning two cylinders 600cc each ??? try that with a kick start! when the new battery arrives and in a full state of charge, I'll do some tests i.e. static condition of bettery after several hours rest, voltage drop, and if I can get my clamp meter on the positive near the starter, record the current draw threre, if not the battery lead ::008::

 

[Jono49]

Well after arriving a day late the YTZ14S battery has been charged and left to settle half a day to get rid of surface charge, and I fitted it tonight, but I took some readings off the old battery for comparison! Static cold reading was 12.48volts, and the voltage drop on start up was down to 9.98 volts, engine was left to warm up beyond enrichment and onto normal idle, then I swapped to the new battery (YTZ14S) Static cold voltage 12.98 volts, Voltage drop on start up 11.45 volts and it sounded a lot less laboured to start! BUT? the big test will come tomorrow morning with a cold start! I'm off on a run down the Lake district with the IXXRA forum (Honda Blackbird owners) so I'll post up any noticable difference then?

Edit: right! I tested on cold start up, static volts 12.89 volts, down to 12.47 after fuel pump is primed and all the ECU and electronics are primed and talking to each other, then I hit the button and the voltage drop was to 11.48 volts and it started immediately! It was a lot sharper in starting, and the engine turned over less, thus giving creedance to the theory that more cold cranking amps keeps the starter happy, and wont rob current from the coils, and all the other consumers on start up, making my superten a happy big girl! ::26::

When I have time I'll try and meter the current draw on start up!

 

[RonH]

I went ahead and measured the current. For the 2.3 seconds the starter was turning max current was 133A, but average only 24A. So there is a big surge of current, then the starter turns with relatively low current draw. This is on my one month old YTZ14S battery cold, about 50 degree temperature.

 

[Jono49]

Good on ya Ron, still a lot of spare cranking amps left if there is a true 230 CCA ::008::

 

[Jono49]

Update.........My Yuasa YTX14S failed big style 2 weeks ago! (2 Months old) It deteriorated gradually and after a full charge it maintained good voltage 12.68v static without surface charge, but when I metered it pressing the starter it dipped to 5.6v and baulked and died, I bought it from Tippets Motorcycles from Surbiton, and returned it to them, and and they sent the same again and refunded the carriage ::012:: good old Tippets! the battery came in a Honda box and the model specified was a Honda Pan European! so here's hoping this one is going to last the course?

 

[Checkswrecks]

Update.........My Yuasa YTX14S failed big style 2 weeks ago! (2 Months old) It deteriorated gradually and after a full charge it maintained good voltage 12.68v static without surface charge, but when I metered it pressing the starter it dipped to 5.6v and baulked and died, I bought it from Tippets Motorcycles from Surbiton, and returned it to them, and and they sent the same again and refunded the carriage ::012:: good old Tippets! the battery came in a Honda box and the model specified was a Honda Pan European! so here's hoping this one is going to last the course?

I think Honda quit building those in 2013. Add a half year for the battery to be made and get through production and you may've bought "new old stock" that was somewhere around 4 years old before you even installed it.

 

[Jono49]

::008:: I'll check the battery and the packaging for manufacturing dates!

 

[Jono49]

Info on Battery dating is very conflicting due to different countries with different way's of doing things! So I've e-mailed Yuasa UK and await their response to find out what the date is on my replacement?