Russtenere
New Member
Hi ppl.my rwar break on the super ten needs couple pumps for it to bite..i put new pads..still doing..any suggestions.no leaks.master still full
Brakes
- Thread starter Russtenere
- Start date
MattR
Well-Known Member
Needs bleeding by the sound of it. Have you changed the fluid recently?
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as matt, says bleed it a few times and cycle the abs pump
rob
rob
Russtenere
New Member
Morning..ive had the bike 1 month.so its possible its old,yea ilbleed an see how goes first,thnx mate
Russtenere
New Member
Hi..how do i check lost abs module…i see the abs line attached,,cheers
Russtenere
New Member
Hi.how do i cycle the abs pump
RCinNC
Well-Known Member
Here's the guide I keep on the bike detailing how to cycle the ABS pump.
You'll also need a jumper wire. I made one out of an electrical test lead from Amazon. It looks like this:
I've attached a PDF of the procedure that you can download.
You'll also need a jumper wire. I made one out of an electrical test lead from Amazon. It looks like this:
I've attached a PDF of the procedure that you can download.
Russtenere
New Member
Brilliant,thnx so much mate..will get to itHere's the guide I keep on the bike detailing how to cycle the ABS pump.
You'll also need a jumper wire. I made one out of an electrical test lead from Amazon. It looks like this:
I've attached a PDF of the procedure that you can download.
Russtenere
New Member
Thnx rob..cheers
RCinNC
Well-Known Member
Just a quick note, that's the procedure for the 2014-2015 models. I think there's a different procedure for the pre-2014 model. I suspect it's the same procedure for the 2016 and up models as the one I posted, but I'm not 100 percent sure of that.
scott123007
Well-Known Member
Anyone care to help me out here...Here's the guide I keep on the bike detailing how to cycle the ABS pump.
You'll also need a jumper wire. I made one out of an electrical test lead from Amazon. It looks like this:
I've attached a PDF of the procedure that you can download.
When you bleed brakes, you take a lid off a master cylinder reservoir which accompanies whatever brake you are bleeding. You extract the old fluid in the reservoir by whatever means you have, and replace it with new fluid. You then put a wrench on a bleeder bolt on whatever caliper you are bleeding. As you either squeeze or depress a lever, you crack the bleeder bolt which allows the fluid to flow out the bleeder. You then tighten the bleeder bolt, pump the lever a few more times, and repeat the process. You do this until most, if not all of the old brake fluid is extracted, and replaced with new fluid , that you have added to whatever reservoir is being emptied as you are bleeding. Other than a couple of different methods, (pressure or vacuum extraction) that is the way you bleed brakes.
So here's my question. Just what the heck is being accomplished by cycling the ABS pump. If there is no bleeder bolt open anywhere, where do you think this fluid is going? There is very little movement, if any, of the brake fluid in a braking system. Its job is to become pressurized by the piston in the master cylinder by the lever being squeezed, which then pushes the pistons in the caliper against the disk/s. When the lever is released, the pressure is eliminated and the pads retract a few thousands of an inch and the disks are free to turn again. Just cycling the pump without having somewhere for the fluid to go doesn't seem to me to do anything if there is no exit path. Please help me to understand what I am missing here. Thanks
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RCinNC
Well-Known Member
If you look in the service manual on pages 3-15 and 3-16, it describes the bleeding procedure. It describes the usual procedure of filling the reservoir, pressurizing the system, cracking the bleeder screw to release fluid, tightening the bleeder screw, and keep doing it until air bubbles disappear. Then it says to perform a function check on the hydraulic unit (which is cycling the ABS pump), and repeating the bleed procedure. This certainly suggests to me that the Yamaha engineers feel like air can be trapped in the hydraulic unit, and that cycling the hydraulic unit can displace that air so it can either be bled out through the caliper or else rise up to the master cylinder.
I imagine the hydraulic unit is a lot like the brake caliper; there are nooks and crannies that an air bubble can become trapped in. If I understand how the hydraulic system works (and that's a big "if"), air could get trapped in the low pressure accumulator, and couldn't be dislodged from there using normal bleed procedures. You'd have to activate the hydraulic unit in order to cycle fluid through this part of the system and push an air bubble out of there.
It's true that brake fluid doesn't move very far, but it does move. It has to at least move far enough to fill the reservoir behind the brake piston, in order to move the piston. That much movement alone is apparently enough to flush out an air bubble that's trapped in someplace like the caliper, or in the small passages of the hydraulic unit. Otherwise, the bleeding procedure wouldn't work.
There are animations on Youtube of how the hydraulic units work in an ABS system. That's how I formulated my own idea of how an air bubble in a system might find itself lodged in an ABS pump.
There are guys on here way smarter than I am about braking systems, and I may be full of shit. Maybe they'll join it with more accurate info.
I imagine the hydraulic unit is a lot like the brake caliper; there are nooks and crannies that an air bubble can become trapped in. If I understand how the hydraulic system works (and that's a big "if"), air could get trapped in the low pressure accumulator, and couldn't be dislodged from there using normal bleed procedures. You'd have to activate the hydraulic unit in order to cycle fluid through this part of the system and push an air bubble out of there.
It's true that brake fluid doesn't move very far, but it does move. It has to at least move far enough to fill the reservoir behind the brake piston, in order to move the piston. That much movement alone is apparently enough to flush out an air bubble that's trapped in someplace like the caliper, or in the small passages of the hydraulic unit. Otherwise, the bleeding procedure wouldn't work.
There are animations on Youtube of how the hydraulic units work in an ABS system. That's how I formulated my own idea of how an air bubble in a system might find itself lodged in an ABS pump.
There are guys on here way smarter than I am about braking systems, and I may be full of shit. Maybe they'll join it with more accurate info.
AntrimMan
Member
@scott123007 :
you're missing nothing. I did what I'm sure you did also, that is reading the book three times on different days, thinking about it for a while, then reading it again and falling asleep. The connector jumpering is part of a functional abs test. That's all.
According to my book for 2013 US model the abs unit rear circuit is activated to supply pressure to the rear during normal linked use and pressure is varied according to sensor feedback. There may be a little back and forth of the fluid then but no flushing. And if the front wheel is locked during travel there may be similar fluid motion in that circuit. The jumpering routine just emulates an abs event for both circuits.
There must be a completely different process for factory installation and bleeding and testing of the complete brake systems that the average owner has no access to and doesn't need normally.
You are correct, without a place to go the fluid is essentially stagnant limited to circulation within the abs block. The schematic does show accumulators so in a loss of pressure event there may be some minor fluid movement but not anything that could be described as flushing. Normal bleeding at the calipers does not force fluid through the abs block but the factory assembly line process likely does. It only makes sense the abs manufacturer would provide the Yamaha factory with, or the knowledge to construct, a test interface separate from the main ecu just for assembly use. Plugged into the abs controller providing direct access to the abs solenoids the factory can do what is necessary to bleed. In a previous post I asked if anyone had opened a bleeder while running the abs test but no response so far. When the riding season is definitely over for me I will experiment just for the sake of the experiment. I expect some codes to be set. I'm thinking my eyes on the reservoirs and a separate person on the bleeders.
Unless you beat me to it and share.
All the best.
you're missing nothing. I did what I'm sure you did also, that is reading the book three times on different days, thinking about it for a while, then reading it again and falling asleep. The connector jumpering is part of a functional abs test. That's all.
According to my book for 2013 US model the abs unit rear circuit is activated to supply pressure to the rear during normal linked use and pressure is varied according to sensor feedback. There may be a little back and forth of the fluid then but no flushing. And if the front wheel is locked during travel there may be similar fluid motion in that circuit. The jumpering routine just emulates an abs event for both circuits.
There must be a completely different process for factory installation and bleeding and testing of the complete brake systems that the average owner has no access to and doesn't need normally.
You are correct, without a place to go the fluid is essentially stagnant limited to circulation within the abs block. The schematic does show accumulators so in a loss of pressure event there may be some minor fluid movement but not anything that could be described as flushing. Normal bleeding at the calipers does not force fluid through the abs block but the factory assembly line process likely does. It only makes sense the abs manufacturer would provide the Yamaha factory with, or the knowledge to construct, a test interface separate from the main ecu just for assembly use. Plugged into the abs controller providing direct access to the abs solenoids the factory can do what is necessary to bleed. In a previous post I asked if anyone had opened a bleeder while running the abs test but no response so far. When the riding season is definitely over for me I will experiment just for the sake of the experiment. I expect some codes to be set. I'm thinking my eyes on the reservoirs and a separate person on the bleeders.
Unless you beat me to it and share.
All the best.
Although the abs module is between the pump and the calipers, it really isn't like that... As long as the wheels don't lock, the fluid flows "directly" between the pump and the caliper, on one side of the module (that is, inside of the module there is immobile liquid)... when the abs actuates, there are two circulations of liquid, the valves close the pressure to the caliper, the pressure between the valve and the caliper is released by the abs motor towards the "back" of the valve (towards the pump), at that moment is when the immobile liquid inside the module enters to the direct brake line (that is what cycling the abs does), that is why cycling the abs implies bleeding “the direct line”….
when the combined brake works, the module activates "another valve" "in the direct line", which prevents the pressure generated by the abs motor from going to the reservoir... then the pressure generated goes to the rear caliper, there is pressure, but little fluid movement, but the "immobilized" fluid inside the module is the one that the electric motor uses as a "reservoir" to push the rear caliper
when the combined brake works, the module activates "another valve" "in the direct line", which prevents the pressure generated by the abs motor from going to the reservoir... then the pressure generated goes to the rear caliper, there is pressure, but little fluid movement, but the "immobilized" fluid inside the module is the one that the electric motor uses as a "reservoir" to push the rear caliper
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WJBertrand
Ventura Highway
This is my thought too. Nowhere in the maintenance section (that I could find anyway) of the FSM, where the brake bleeding is described, does it mention cycling the pump. Instead this is described separately in the test and repair sections. I took that as being intended as a diagnostic test or perhaps a way to charge it with fluid upon installation, and not a routine maintenance task.
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RCinNC
Well-Known Member
These are the two pages from the service manual that make reference to activating the ABS pump while bleeding the brakes. If you look up the actual pump on an OEM parts seller's website, you'll see it's actually called a Hydraulic Unit Assembly, and that's how the ABS pump is referred to in the SM.
The red arrow shows where the bleeding procedure begins, on page 3-15. The highlighted portion on page 3-16 shows where the hydraulic unit is cycled following the bleed procedure. If you note, the SM specifies that you repeat steps (a) through (i) after you operate the ABS. That certainly suggests to me that cycling the ABS isn't simply a function test; if it was, why bother to repeat the brake bleeding procedure after you've done it once and determined that you'd removed all the air in the system? What it suggests to me is that cycling the pump can change the results of the first bleed, so you need to bleed the brakes once more after the pump is activated. What other change could there be aside from the engineers determining that some air could be trapped in the hydraulic unit, and that cycling it can dislodge the air from there, which would require a second bleed procedure to totally eliminate the air from the system?
The red arrow shows where the bleeding procedure begins, on page 3-15. The highlighted portion on page 3-16 shows where the hydraulic unit is cycled following the bleed procedure. If you note, the SM specifies that you repeat steps (a) through (i) after you operate the ABS. That certainly suggests to me that cycling the ABS isn't simply a function test; if it was, why bother to repeat the brake bleeding procedure after you've done it once and determined that you'd removed all the air in the system? What it suggests to me is that cycling the pump can change the results of the first bleed, so you need to bleed the brakes once more after the pump is activated. What other change could there be aside from the engineers determining that some air could be trapped in the hydraulic unit, and that cycling it can dislodge the air from there, which would require a second bleed procedure to totally eliminate the air from the system?
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WJBertrand
Ventura Highway
There’s a note there that says cycling the pump is necessary after removing or loosening a hose, or if the fluid was run low. All cases where air might be introduced. That’s wha made me think it didn’t need to be done all every time.
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RCinNC
Well-Known Member
The only reason you'd be bleeding the brakes would be if you knew or suspected that air had entered the system. I don't think it would be necessary to do if you were just replacing the fluid as part of scheduled maintenance, unless you had a "whoops" moment and heard the awful sucking sound of a master cylinder reservoir going dry.
I keep that cheat sheet and jumper wire on the bike so I can just cycle the unit when I'm doing other tasks on the bike that have nothing to do with the brakes. After reading reports on here of ABS unit failures, I figure it can't hurt to check the unit once in a while under controlled conditions to make sure it's still working.
I keep that cheat sheet and jumper wire on the bike so I can just cycle the unit when I'm doing other tasks on the bike that have nothing to do with the brakes. After reading reports on here of ABS unit failures, I figure it can't hurt to check the unit once in a while under controlled conditions to make sure it's still working.