Bank sensors - suicide pegs or whatever else you call them

[markjenn]

If you consistently find yourself touching hard parts it's time to take a look at what YOU are doing and not suddenly blame it on poor lean angle capability on a bike.

Sorry to take this thread off topic but I feel this needs to be stated as it is the rider who is responsible for this occurring not the bike!

Poor riding technique can certainly contribute to grounding, but the idea that it is always the rider's fault and never the bike is BS. I'm teach at track days, so I think I know a little about correct body positioning and cornering technique, and as I said earlier, I could tell the bike was short of left-side cornering clearance a few miles into my first ride on the bike. A bit of "hanging off" helps (as it does with any bike), but technique can only go so far before you reach the bike's limits and the S10's are modest, at least on the left side.

It's not cruiser-bad and I don't expect a bike like the S10 to allow sportbike lean angles, but it's not great either. All part of the compromises any motorcycle mfg has to make when they design a bike.

- Mark

 

[Firefight911]

Poor riding technique can certainly contribute to grounding, but the idea that it is always the rider's fault and never the bike is BS. I'm teach at track days, so I think I know a little about correct body positioning and cornering technique, and as I said earlier, I could tell the bike was short of left-side cornering clearance a few miles into my first ride on the bike. A bit of "hanging off" helps (as it does with any bike), but technique can only go so far before you reach the bike's limits and the S10's are modest, at least on the left side.

It's not cruiser-bad and I don't expect a bike like the S10 to allow sportbike lean angles, but it's not great either. All part of the compromises any motorcycle mfg has to make when they design a bike.

- Mark

What is it with this place and people thinking they have to profess their resumes?

I never said "fault" which implies you're wrong and I am right. I said "responsibility" which is entirely different.

So what, you "teach at track days." I professionally road raced from 89-92, I went to the 1990 WERA Grand National Finals, I taught the MSF beginner and advanced courses for 9 years as an Experienced Instructor, I have been teaching classes in one way or another related to motorcycling for over 20 years, I was an accident re-constructionist for motorcycle accidents with a prestigious law firm in Southern California. Who cares!

If you are consistently dragging hard parts, change your riding style, adjust your suspension properly, go to the race track, ride a bike more suited for that style of riding, etc. In other words, take responsibility for what is occurring, realize it shouldn't be occurring consistently and, if it does, you need to change something or you are headed down the road of becoming separated from your motorcycle. That is being responsible and has nothing to do with fault. Now, if you do continue down this road, it is your fault when you go down as a result of your lack of responsibility. Now, let's hope one of your riding buddies came to one of the motorcyclist first aid classes I teach so they know what to do to keep themselves and you safe from further harm. Oh, and don't worry, those red flashing lights and sirens you hear are me and my crew in the fire engine on our way to get you to definitive care. Yea, I do that too.

 

[rem]

If I might offer an opinion .... this thread seems to be build on a huge list of variables ... scraping the side of the bike could be due to a large number of things from riding position to low tires. Eventually, it will be up to the individual to determine why this is happening, or even to be concerned if it is.


It's sometimes difficult to get your point across via the electronic media. I bet if you guys could all get together, you'd probably come to a workable and agreeable conclusion. My guess is you're all correct because you are speaking from your own experience. Every rider's reaction to, and evaluation of, any experience will likely be different, even if the experience is identical. Maybe a lot, maybe a little. I think you are all after the same thing .... safe riding and answers to questions that might make riding safer.


I think you guys should kiss and make up. Well, hug, anyway. Group hug? GAG PUKE kidding but at least, don't piss on each other's tires.


I know Vinny and Guido want that, too ....... R

 

[Twisties]

FWIW, I was going to say something like what Phil (Firefight911) said.... but I would have said it more gently, and nicer, and you would have all loved me, and counted me a hero... ;D ::010:: ::013:: Don't we have a patting self on back emo? Oh well, send monies, that will do.

It's been said and I have nothing to add to the principle, if not the way it was said.

I agree with both Mark and Phil actually... I also touched the left peg feeler (that's what I call the thing) on my first ride, probably about the same miles too, and was surprised. I haven't done it since. Rather than ::002:: I would like to say what I did do differently that seems to have resolved the problem, for me, and yes, I do think touching hard parts is a problem. Maybe a word on that first, since I haven't seen it stated in this thread yet.

You don't want to touch down on something hard and fixed on the bike... like the center stand when it's up as, aside from potentially damaging that part, you are reducing weight on the tires, e.g. reducing grip, and in extreme cases can actually lever the wheels off the ground... resulting in an uncontrolled slide. The peg feelers and pegs are built with give, to provide a warning before anything disastrous occurs. I realize that is basic, and most everyone here knows it, but we do have some new and returning riders on this board, and it was suggested by someone that it might not be viewed as important. Obviously everyone here are adults and free to draw their own conclusions. I just hope to offer a perspective. Mine is don't ignore your warnings, and that means don't ignore your pegs.

Moving on, what I did when I touched down:
1. Immediately backed off.
2. Reassessed my ride.... the RT is more top heavy with narrower bars... it takes more input to initiate and maintain a turn. For the S10 I realized I needed to go light(er) on the bars, kiss the mirrors (a little closer now).
3. Gradually reasserted my ride.
4. When I got home looked things over, checked the suspension, set the sag.

So far no further warnings of that sort!

As for the boots though, yep, several times. Again, basics corrects this problem. When riding aggressively (some say always for street riding, but I'm not that disciplined) the balls of your feet should be on the pegs and the toes pointed in. That seems to solve the problem for me.

I feel the bike has plenty of lean angle. There are no chicken strips on my tires. Not bragging (I actually consider that poor technique and not appropriate for street riding, I prefer the 70-80% rule on the street), but making a point: The bike can take as much lean as the tires are up for. That's my opinion, anyway.

 

[markjenn]

Relax Phil. We're in general agreement. Perhaps I did mis-interpret what you said with respect to "responsibility", but the way you originally stated things reads to me that if things scrape, it's the rider's problem and never the bike. In reality and as you know, bikes do differ radically in their cornering clearance and the S10 is no champ in this department.

Put another way, I think you can have perfect rider technique and be traveling at sporting speeds well witihn the tire's capabilities and be dragging things on the S10.

- Mark

 

[rem]

Thanks, Twisties. That's exactly what I would have said if I ... you know ... had the brains and experience and all that. Well done.


And thanks Mark for your comments. I can't even get Vinny and Guido off the couch in this weather. Lazy beggars.


This has all given me a pain in the groin so I'm gonna .... no, wait ... that's my hernia incision. Time for bed anyway, I think.


And now I lay me down to sleep ......
My bike's in someone else's keep .....
If he should ride it while it's there .....
I'll kick his skinny butt (poetic licence). Let's ride safely out there ... those of you still riding. damn. R

 

[Firefight911]

All good comments, well,....except Jan (Twisties)......I'm kidding!!! Jan and I have a long and good history of friendship. He will prolly be the first to attest to my passion...and ability to be black and white on topics of discussion. And let me tell you about how I feel when it comes to personal responsibility! ::019::

I look forward to all of us getting together. I'm buying the first round! ::008::

::003:: ::003:: ::003::

Now, let's moto! ::001:: ::001:: ::001::

 

[rem]

Well said, Phil. But ... Canadian beer, eh ??? I'm in. R

 

[Brick]

Ok... I'm relatively new to this Forum and still have not gotten my Super T but I'm working on it. I am however a long time rider and want to post this question.

In the USA we ride on the right side of the road and the road is crowned in the middle and so is lower on the left so... it is easier to touch down the left "Hero Ball" than it is to touch the right side (apparently without the "Hero Ball").

What about the countries where you all ride on the "wrong"... oops Left side of the road... isn't it easier for you to touch down the right Hero Ball-less peg? Doesn't that make sense!!!??? > O > O

So Yamaha should make the Super T with Hero Balls on BOTH sides!! ::010::

 

[markjenn]

In the USA we ride on the right side of the road and the road is crowned in the middle and so is lower on the left so... it is easier to touch down the left "Hero Ball" than it is to touch the right side (apparently without the "Hero Ball").

Interesting point. While true, I suspect the effect of road crown on cornering clearance is minor compared to the centerstand hanging lower on the left. I doubt Yamaha did the left peg feeler because of road crown. A UK bike with the peg feeler on the opposite side would, of course, prove me wrong.

I recall when I fitted the accessory Suzuki centerstand to my 650 Strom (which came with short peg feelers on BOTH sides standard), they included an extra-long one to replace the feeler on the left. This further indicates to me that they're probably worried about the centerstand stealing clearance, not about road crown.

- Mark

 

[Firefight911]

The goal with the peg feeler is to be the first thing to touch down first. This is irrespective of road crown. The idea is that when the peg feeler touches down the peg will move up as lean angle increases which provides warning to the rider by way of the feeler scraping yet provides a margin of safety with the peg's ability to move. The issue comes in to play when an immovable object such as the center stand or frame or engine casing or side case touches down. At this point the only thing that happens as more relative lean angle is added is for the immovable object to take more weight bearing and create a fulcrum point for the bike to pivot on. This can lever a tire right off the ground with an obvious result.

If you are riding and a peg scrapes you need to immediately evaluate what is going on. One of the worst things you can do at this point is to roll off the throttle. You need to maintain relative speed. Slowing down at this point will decrease ground clearance doing the opposite of what you want to do. Weight the outer peg, move your weight forward and inside of the turn (called kiss the mirror), loosen your grip on the bars, look where you want to go, and ride through the turn. Once through, evaluate what happened to create a strategy to minimize this from occurring in the future. Either change your line, change your body positioning, adjust your suspension, slow down, or get on a bike more suited for that style of riding.

 

[bvail]

Hero Balls? Nah! Go here: http://www.autobarn.net/pilot-curb-feelers.html?site=google_base

p.s. They even have chrome dice on the ends. Hows that for tacky?

 

[stevepsd]

Hero Balls? Nah! Go here: http://www.autobarn.net/pilot-curb-feelers.html?site=google_base

p.s. They even have chrome dice on the ends. Hows that for tacky?

I forgot about those! I remember as a kid back in the 60's when all the 'big' cars Cadillacs', Lincolns', etc all had those things mounted on the bottoms of the fenders.

 

[colorider]

If you are riding and a peg scrapes you need to immediately evaluate what is going on. One of the worst things you can do at this point is to roll off the throttle. You need to maintain relative speed. Slowing down at this point will decrease ground clearance doing the opposite of what you want to do. Weight the outer peg, move your weight forward and inside of the turn (called kiss the mirror), loosen your grip on the bars, look where you want to go, and ride through the turn. Once through, evaluate what happened to create a strategy to minimize this from occurring in the future. Either change your line, change your body positioning, adjust your suspension, slow down, or get on a bike more suited for that style of riding.

EXCELLENT explanation Phil!


::026::