Any former R1200GS owners who can answer.....

[Rasher]

In discusssions about swapping my GS for a Super Tenere, the only problem is I have the GS just how I like it with £1200 of Wilburs Suspension, modified seats, sat nav and autocom all neatly plumbed in,and in total I have spent almost £2k on it in the last year.

The problem is I do not trust it, the last tour it did resulted in leaking forks seals, warped brake discs and a clutch fault and with 15k miles on it the Final Drive is probably on the verge of (self) distruction, but the bike does everything I want very well.

I have a few real concerns:

1. How bad is the 1st - 3rd restriction?

As I like to get to mountains (like the Alps) the bike will spend a lot of time at low revs, in low gears and two-up, will it feel gutless after the GS?

Also is it generally as quick as a GS, especially two-up?


2. How spacious is the luggage?

To me the luggage on the Yamaha look smaller than the GS Vario stuff, I really do not want any less capacity than I currently have, with the GS luggage the larger side case can easily hold a full face helmet, and so can the top box, can anyone tell me how the two compare in the real world?


3. Does it use more fuel?

I find the GS very good on fuel, when bombing around faster roads solo it does high 40's, but when two-up toruing through the Alps at lower speeds it will often average over 50mpg (That's UK Gallons)


4. How easy is wheel removal?

A very small point, but the GS single sided shaft is fantastic for quick tyre changes, and even the front is an absolute joy.


And lastly, should I make the switch????

I am very tempted, but know if I end up wanting another GS I would end up having to spend £1500 - £2000 getting another one back to how mine is currently configured, whereas I could just buy a newer lower mileage one and put all my bits on it - but I am loathed to feel obliged to upgrade a bike when it gets past 15k becuase it can't be trusted to remain reliable.


Any thoughts from other ex GS'ers appreciated

 

[big dave]

Rasher

where abouts in the UK are you? If your in or about west yorkshire then you are welcome to come and try my bike.
I've just returned from a euro trip which included 2/3 days in the alps.
I have to say I did not find the bike lacking and I was running in (T)ouring mode which if I understand it puts an extra slight restriction on the power output in the lower gears. 60 bhp rings a bell with me - if you do a search on the forum you should find the info - remember the early Kawasaki H1 triple "only" pumped out 60bhp and that provided us with enough excitement.
My style of riding utilises revs of between 2500 to just over 4000 and I have to say the bike "carburetted" perfectly at all altitudes.
As far as luggage is concerned I am running with the oe luggage and it worked perfectly on the trip. The locks do feel a bit plasticky but they never let me down. The oe sidecases will not hold a helmet but the topbox just fits my nolan flip.
My fuel consumption according to the on board pooter was in excess of 50 uk mpg for the whole trip.
I've never removed the rear wheel so cannot really comment.
should you really make the change, read last month's BIKE magazine and check out the strip down on Nick Sanders xtz after 51000 miles, that should help with your decision.
BD

 

[NoMorBills]

I can't answer your ?? as I don't and haven't owned a GS. But what the... "I am loathed to feel obliged to upgrade a bike when it gets past 15k becuase it can't be trusted to remain reliable." !5K is just getting broke in not Unreliable..
As for the 1-3 gear restriction. I think you have too have a sportbike past to tell the differance. Mine is plenty quick I don't spend much time in the first 3 gears anyway.

My choice was the Tenere over the BMW was just for the reliability and lower maintanance cost. I will be following this just to see how A past GS owner compares to his Tenere.

 

[Motowalt]

The BMW 1200 GSA was on my list, but I just couldn't bring myself to buy it due to the nagging possibility of a final drive failure in the middle of nowhere someday. I believe BMW's single sided swingarm may be less sturdy than Yamaha's double sided design and that may be a contributing factor to BMW's continuing failures (just my opinion).
I only have 600 miles on the ST, but I feel it will do everything as good as, if not better than the big Beemer...I am very happy with my purchase and have no buyer's remorse.

 

[markjenn]

My $0.02,

1. I think the S10 feels SLIGHTLY slower than the GS. Part may be the 1st-3rd restriction, part is that it is about 5-hp down on the top end and doesn't rev as high, part is that the bike weighs more. Put 40-lb of gear in the saddlebags of your GS and that's pretty close to how the S10 will feel unloaded. Not a big deal and the S10 has very nice power, but it is noticeable - the GS has a little more spunk across the board.

2. I think BMW does a nicer job overall on the luggage and accessories in general. You can go non-OEM if you want more space than the S10 OEM bags. The OEM bags are VERY nicely integrated into the bike, but they're modest in size and the panniers won't take a helmet. The top box will. (Personally, I like the smaller size of the OEM bags; I don't want huge bags.)

3. Fuel mileage on the GS may be slightly better - a couple mpg at most - but the S10 has a bigger tank so has slightly better range. Since there is no range advantage, it's really just a cost difference, and even over a year's driving, the difference would be tiny for most of us, so I can't see this as being something to differentiate the bikes unless you're doing tens of thousands of miles every year.

4. Wheel removal is slightly more involved on the S10, but not difficult. To choose one bike over the other because a yearly tire change takes 10-minutes longer doesn't seem significant to me.

I hear you on GS problems, although I have four or five friends who ride the things and have had no big issues. I tour all the time in the company of GS's and we've never had a debilitating failure or one that required us to do anything other than make simple repairs. But if yours is giving you problems, then probably a good time to either trade for a new one or get the S10.

I think the GS vs. S10 debate is more personal preference than anything. To me, the slight performance disadvantage of the S10 is more than offset by the lower price of the S10 combined with a number of advantages: better ABS and traction control systems, a little roomier and more comfortable cockpit and weather protection, better vibe control, better reliability, larger dealer network, simpler and more straightforward systems (I particularly like having a more tolerant of abuse and easier to repair wet clutch, stronger double-sided swingarm, and a more robust final drive). I wish the S10 was a little lighter and a little more powerful, but all bikes are compromises and the S10 is a darn good one.

You can't go wrong with either. If I were in your shoes, I might stay on the sideline for another six months and see what transpires with the water-cooled boxer, a new S10 model, and the new Triumph Explorer. I also think the new 650 Strom is a great bike if you're Okay with the modest power. Adventure riders are in the clover right now.

- Mark

 

[Bigbore4]

Never owned a BMW, but we have helped friends with service. We do all our own repairs at this house. Everything. I have 8800 miles on my XTZ. I don't know how the heck BMW stays in it with he difficulty of service, and if you have to pay a shop over $100 an hour for it, it's crazy expensive. I can put a clutch in a Yamaha in an hour or so, the Bimmers are around 8. And need it more often. Yamaha reliability, good major service intervals with valve adj at >26k miles. This is my 6th new Yamaha, I love it.

If someone had not told me it was restricted in the first three my Butt Dyno would not have picked it up. It pulls fine. I had it up in our Rocky Mountains for a week on a mix of gravel and twisties. Works fine. I'll be replacing tires over the winter, so I can address ease of tire removal later.

The XTZ is not quite as good as my FJR at ingesting great heaping tracts of land in a single day, but dang close. I have multiple 600 mile days on it and a few 800 plus days, even with the shitty seat. Once I decide what to do with the seat there's a possibility I may have a clean 2005 Feej for sale.

 

[digitalmoto]

In the US, a XTZ costs around $14K including traction control and ABS. GS with silimiar goodies is closer to $18K. So you can buy $4000 in goodies to fix anything you don't like about the Yamaha before you've even rolled out of the BMW dealership with another GS. Do you think a GS is worth that much more, just because it a BMW? You're already talking about severe failures with your existing bike... and BMW is doing nothing to keep you a happy satified customer. Right? Then why would you consider giving more of your money to BMW in a replacement bike or continued repairs to your existing bike? Talk about throwing good money after bad. If you've really gotta have a nameplate, then buy a Ducati.
It all seems rather obvious to me, but I'm biased.

 

[bscritch]

I am a former BMW GS owner (I have had 2 standard GS's and 1 GSA). The bikes are top notch - engines are smooth as silk and I have had no problems......except for my 2008 GS. This past year my GS spent approximately 5 months at the dealer. Feburary thru April the bike sat in disarray because a rear main seal let go....causing a somewhat dramatic oil leak. June through July found the bike once again at the dealer with yet another oil leak...this time it was a freeze plug that came dislodged (BMWNA got involved with this issue which did cause some delay). Causing oil to get into the clutch area...bad deal was that I was offered no replacement bike during peak riding season. I did pick up a DL650 which was fun to ride, but missed the 1200.

I have had over 30 bikes and this was the first time that I had a mechanical failure of this magnitude.....bummer for me!!

At that point i felt I needed something new - and needed a break from BMW....so an S10 was purveyed from my friendly local dealer. What I went through was not the norm for BMW's....my first few ran flawlessly and to be honest, I will probably end up with another one day. As someone mentioned, the service schedule can be a bit expensive - but to really keep the bike in warranty condition, services are highly recommended (every 6k miles). You do pay a premium for the BMW moniker (at least that is what feel). I have heard of the famed final drive failures as well, but have not met anyone personally that has had that unfortunate experience happen to them.

I am thrilled with my S10 - it is one of those bikes that I know will last as long as I want it to. Also, Yamaha dealers are much more prevelant whereas some states don't even have a BMW MC dealership.....

Bottom line is that both bikes are fantastic....tire changes and ease of wheel removal is non dramatic on either machine, I think the bigger question is the frequent valve adjustments which adds cost to ownership?

 

[eemsreno]

Markjenn I like reading everything you say but when anyone puts the Wee in the same category as the Super Tenere, I just screem. [I also think the new 650 Strom is a great bike if you're Okay with the modest power.]
I still owen a Wee and ride it to work every day,It's probable the best little commuter bike ever made but is NOT an Adventure bike!!!!! It's not even on the same page as the Tenere not even in the same book. People use them as Adventure bikes [ I even rode one to Alaska ] They are POSERS ONLY. I know they will go anywhere and do anything but they are best suited for riding back and forth to work . Ok I don't want to start anything here , I'm no Wee expert and never will be but I have riden one 18,000 miles in the last 5 months. Never letting it out of my sight and sleeping 6 feet away from it for 18 days straight.

 

[markjenn]

Markjenn I like reading everything you say but when anyone puts the Wee in the same category as the Super Tenere, I just screem. [I also think the new 650 Strom is a great bike if you're Okay with the modest power.]
I still owen a Wee and ride it to work every day,It's probable the best little commuter bike ever made but is NOT an Adventure bike!!!!!

I don't "screem" but I strongly disagree. A Wee is a good 110-lb lighter than a S10 and while each has its weak points in the bush, I'd rather be on a Wee in many situations where the weight makes a huge difference. For one, I knew I could always pick up my Wee if it fell over; not so sure with the S10. This alone makes a Wee more suitable for many rides.

Certainly the two bikes are in different classes, but a Wee can basically do everything a S10 can do except the high-speed stuff.

The idea that a Wee is not an adventure bike just doesn't pass the common sense test and flies in the face of thousands of owners who do a lot more adventuring on them than most do on the S10 an GS. The logic of how a bike can be used successfully by these folks on challenging adventure rides but yet not be an adventure bike escapes me. Agree to disagree on this one.

- Mark

 

[GrahamD]

Hey Mark,

Have you ever tried to pick up the S10?

Just curious,

 

[Rasher]

Thanks

My main concerns are not really is the S10 a good bike, but more about the luggage capacity, the one I have a chance to swop for has the Yamaha luggage and the reason I am so concerned is I do a lot of two-up touring and getting ebnough stuff on a bike for two people for a fortnight is not easy with small cases, if I only rode solo it would not be an issue.

The GS Vario's are just about right, she gets the big one, I get the small one, waterproofs go in the tank bag, spare visors / gloves / jumpers / food / drink and anything else needed during the day fit it the top box - even in the lower position.

My GS has not had a major failure, but the issue is the fear of impending doom, this is not just financial, my time is precious, I do not know how many more trips I will be able to make to far away places, each on is precious and the thought of the Final Drive going just as I am setting off for two weeks in the Alps is worrying, the cost is irrelevant, BMW cannot give me my holiday time back.

From a cost point of view I paid £300 for the extended warranty again this year - something I have never done on any other bike in 25 years, I typically need at least one 6k service, plus maybe an annual if they do not coincide, but even if they do the average cost of a service over the 4 services cycle at 6/12/18/24k is £325, add £300 for extended warranty and the cost is £625 per year, and anything not covered by warranty (like the fragile dry clutch) will cost a fortune at £100 per hour labour. I would do basic services on the Tenere myself and I expect the dealer ones are still less than BMW (The 24k BMW service is a whopping £450). This makes the Yamaha at least £300 a year less just by not needing an extended warranty, and with some home servicing probably £450 a year less to run.

I suppose I could always sell the Yamaha luggage if it is too small and buy something bigger.

The swap is tempting as I do not have to try and sell my bike and bits seperately to get the most money, or put up with tyre kickers, time wasters and p*** takers, it also means no initial depreciation as we will exchange at "real" values.

We may have a deal done soon, as long as the guy is reasonable on his valuation.

 

[Rasher]

Rasher

where abouts in the UK are you? If your in or about west yorkshire then you are welcome to come and try my bike.

Thanks,

I live way down south, I have had a quick test ride and will try to get a longer one somewhere if I can.

I am sure the bike will be as nice as the GS, it is just I have become familiar with the GS and with the upgraded suspension it really is a damn fine handling machine, even two-up with cases loaded it is dead stable and can be flung around as hard as I dare with no problems, even to the point of pegs down - and I noticed on the Tenere test it does not have as much ground clearance as I was able to scrape it without trying too hard on the OE tyres - my GS is fitted with Roadsmarts which allowed me to go a lot quicker than the Battlewings and Tourance EXP's I previously used.

Being able to put a helmet in the top box is another essential for me, it is just so handy if I am out for a little run.

 

[markjenn]

Have you ever tried to pick up the S10?

No, but I've picked up an FJR so I know what 600+ lb bikes are like to attempt to get off the deck - damn difficult in perfect conditions on smooth pavement. Throw in unlevel ground, dirt, rain, mud, etc. and it can quickly become essentially impossible without help.

- Mark

 

[markjenn]

My GS has not had a major failure, but the issue is the fear of impending doom, this is not just financial, my time is precious, I do not know how many more trips I will be able to make to far away places, each on is precious and the thought of the Final Drive going just as I am setting off for two weeks in the Alps is worrying, the cost is irrelevant, BMW cannot give me my holiday time back.

It's a cliche, but true: People need to ride more and read the internet less. Even if a GS is 3x more likely to fail than average (and I doubt it is), the risk of "impending doom" may be VERY small in absolute terms. If you've got a bike that is setup the way you want and is providing you good service, then I'd ride it - the odds it will continue to be perfectly fine are pretty darn good. And you have the extended warranty so there's no monetary risk.

- Mark

 

[Dagny_Taggart]

I put 25,000 miles on a 2007 GSA, bought s S10 and put 700 miles on it, and sold the GSA.

They are both fine bikes - I sold because my dealers are about 1.5 hours away and BMW bikes like dealers. The mental strain of reliability was also a factor... my BMW never left me anywhere but it did spend a lot of time at the dealer. The extended warranty for one year for the GS would buy me about 4-5 years on the Yamaha and that was the deciding factor. We can argue about the relative reliability... but the people that sell extended warranties know a lot more than I do.

I have Jesse bags on the S10...OEM Adventure cases on the GSA. The GSA were more user friendly on everyday rides but I will concede it looks like you could total the bike and still use the Jesses... they seem tougher but I am loathe to test this out. The GSA was more friendly due to the size and shape.

The GSA averaged about 39 mpg... the S10 is getting about 42mpg last time I checked.

My Yamaha dealer is very convenient for servicing... so far the S10 has had its 600 mile check and that was it. It was a third the cost of the GSA 600 mile check.

Handling? Well, they are different. The GSA was slightly more plush (but the last time I road it, it had 25k miles on the OEM suspension) and the S10 actually feels more sportbike like. I have not taken the time to set it up properly.... I think the GSA might have been slightly quicker in steering but the S10 actually feels more stable in cross wind, moguls, uneven and unexpected road surfaces. The ABS brakes on the Yamaha are far superior in speed and response. I didn't have ASC on the GSA... and I feel like TCS is a little overkill on the S10. It is a pain to remember to turn off when going on a dirt road or gravel road (and you really want to do that... it feels like crap in highway mode going up a hill in slippery conditions).

Personally... you will enjoy either bike... but if the reliability concern is a niggle in the back of the brain... there is no question how to kill that niggle. I feel guilty about my own niggle... but I killed it by buying Yamaha. I am happy...

Good luck with your choice.

 

[colorider]

Thanks

My main concerns are not really is the S10 a good bike, but more about the luggage capacity, the one I have a chance to swop for has the Yamaha luggage and the reason I am so concerned is I do a lot of two-up touring and getting ebnough stuff on a bike for two people for a fortnight is not easy with small cases, if I only rode solo it would not be an issue.

The GS Vario's are just about right, she gets the big one, I get the small one, waterproofs go in the tank bag, spare visors / gloves / jumpers / food / drink and anything else needed during the day fit it the top box - even in the lower position.

I suppose I could always sell the Yamaha luggage if it is too small and buy something bigger.

If you could sell the Yamaha luggage, there are several choices out there that will provide the small bag/large bag setup, plus whatever size tail trunk you want. I run SW-Motech racks with a 33l pannier on the left, a 46l on the right and a 46l tail trunk. As with you, the small pioneer is for me the large for my wife and the tail trunk for overflow.

Good luck!

 

[justbob]

My 2005 BMW R1200 was the best bike I have ever owned and the worst. Most of the time it was the best most comfortable touring bike but it also had more mechanical issues than any of the other 30+ bikes I have owned and ridden for a total of 500,000 miles. It suffered a seal failure (fortunately in warranty) that also contaminated the clutch. That repair out of warranty would cost between $1500 and $2000. The dealer had the bike for 29 days during prime riding season.
The ESA failed twice, the final drive bearing failed while 1000 miles from home, and it broke a lower throttle cable at 50,000 miles. Of course, they have never seen one do that before.
This is the only bike that has left me stranded on the road and it did it twice.
BMW's attitude of sticking their head in the sand has made me a one time owner.

 

[sail2xxs]

My 2005 BMW R1200 was the best bike I have ever owned and the worst. Most of the time it was the best most comfortable touring bike but it also had more mechanical issues than any of the other 30+ bikes I have owned and ridden for a total of 500,000 miles. It suffered a seal failure (fortunately in warranty) that also contaminated the clutch. That repair out of warranty would cost between $1500 and $2000. The dealer had the bike for 29 days during prime riding season.
The ESA failed twice, the final drive bearing failed while 1000 miles from home, and it broke a lower throttle cable at 50,000 miles. Of course, they have never seen one do that before.
This is the only bike that has left me stranded on the road and it did it twice.
BMW's attitude of sticking their head in the sand has made me a one time owner.

I had a similar experience and feelings toward my '09 800 GS after 42k miles. I plan to be a one time owner as well. The part that sucks is that I really liked the bike, and I had it dialed in for my riding style on and off road. The reliability, various strandings far from home, and dealing with the "never seen that before" or "it's not the bike, it's your fault" type of reaction pushed me opver the edge.

Chris

 

[3putt]

I'm not much help here, as I plan on being a one time BMW owner as well. I had an 07 K12GT, FD was replaced at 9000 miles.

The systems on this bike have really impressed me both on and offroad and especially gravel down hill. The ABS works, and the TC works just as well. I actually prefer TC1 in loose conditions even uphill and gravel, it is sorta like ABS in reverse. Allows you to power up hill and around corners without excessive wheel spin. Really enhances the riding experience for me.

The ABS is the best feature of this bike in my book!