All Steel is not created equal.....

Duckhead

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Does anyone know how to determine the quality of steel used in a bolt. Numerical classification? If Iam buying a replacement bolt how do I know I have a good quality steel with regards to Hardness, elasticity, flexual strenght....etc all the metallurgical properties that make it the most durable steel. Some one or place on line that sells the "GOOD STUFF"?
 

Wanderer

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Howdy,
Thanks Kelvininin, I often wondered about that "8" on the top of the bolt. Also just one more thought, don't fall for the old wives tale that stainless steel is stronger then steel, it's not, SS has about 1/2 the tensile strength of steel.
Later,
Norm
 

autoteach

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http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=125

Stainless is not half the strength. Check the graph out. Its ultimate strength is considerably higher. The problem is that it work hardens and suffers from brittle fatigue failure.

As for bolt strengths and getting the "good stuff". this is really a tough subject. Many different steels can reach grade 10.9 (metric) or 8 ratings which means that not all steels are created equal. Determining who is using the best steel is really tough and I don't have that answer for you.
 

Karson

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autoteach said:
http://www.bssa.org.uk/topics.php?article=125

Stainless is not half the strength. Check the graph out. Its ultimate strength is considerably higher. The problem is that it work hardens and suffers from brittle fatigue failure.

As for bolt strengths and getting the "good stuff". this is really a tough subject. Many different steels can reach grade 10.9 (metric) or 8 ratings which means that not all steels are created equal. Determining who is using the best steel is really tough and I don't have that answer for you.
I really don't have anything of value to add, but judging from your posts you eat, breath and sleep stuff like this. I enjoy reading your insights.
 

autoteach

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I am a little bit of a dork, but I am just a high school teacher. The info I know on steel for bolts is because we coop students with Charter Steel, a company that makes just rolled steel round stock for everything from truck springs to bolts. I just got a tour recently of their material properties lab and we asked some really good questions regarding bolt manufacturing and learned some interesting little tid bits, as in the different steels that can meet strength requirements for a bolt and how some cause failures in forming, brittleness, etc. Pretty cool stuff.
 

RED CAT

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There were serious problems a few years ago in the aircraft industry with bolts failing. Turns out there were Chinese counterfit bolts circulating being sold as grade 8 and higher but were not. So its hard to tell what you are getting. You could specify American made.
 

Yamaguy55

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::015::
Duckhead said:
Does anyone know how to determine the quality of steel used in a bolt. Numerical classification? If Iam buying a replacement bolt how do I know I have a good quality steel with regards to Hardness, elasticity, flexual strenght....etc all the metallurgical properties that make it the most durable steel. Some one or place on line that sells the "GOOD STUFF"?
If it is for your Yamaha, buy the factory part from the dealer. They always fit, and last as long as the original. 8)

The problem with everything else is the substandard stuff that sneaks in with a better grade marking than it can deliver.
I'd guess getting a 12.x instead of the original 8.8 would be enough more that you should have some level of confidence. The Metric version of SAE grades is stamped on the head. The Metric version numbers are not direct equivalents of the SAE version. I believe SAE grade 8 equates to the one marked 12.(forget the next digit) in metric.

Hope that helps.
 

autoteach

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standard grade 8 is 10.9 in metric. Upgrading the tensile strength of a bolt is not necessarily the right move. In some high vibration applications, the higher grades tend to fail in a brittle fracture. I have seen this many times before, especially in snowmobile suspension. We install grade 5 in those locations due to that fact.
 

Yamaguy55

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Perhaps. But in the world of extreme duty fasteners, it most certainly does. I used to repair shall we say, government things, and we found that we had to go a grade higher. However, our bolts were critical enough that they came individually wrapped, with a cardboard sleeve over the threads, in a sealed plastic back. $485.00 each in 1981. Each. But they were very very good bolts. Complete with label containing lot and serial number inside that bag, traceable to the mine the ores came from. So we're probably talking a different order of magnitude here.

However, with today's global sourcing of parts, the days when you could be assured that the grade 5/8.8/etc bolt you have in your hand met the grade they claim it to be is somewhat dubious. It is probably an 80% chance or greater it will be fine, but in a critical place, I'd go to Yamaha and buy it from them. You have to believe that they take their sourcing seriously and at least attempt to filter out the slag filled examples that somehow make their way into consumers bolt bins. So the quick confidence builder is to go up one grade and hope for the best. That's what I was trying to state. Personally, after being in the business for as long as I have, I've never had a problem with too high a grade, but have with too low. Some of the items in my current position require 780-900 ft/lb torque specs. Try that with your Craftsman torque wrench!

If it were a suspension fastener, or any similar load/criticality part, the factory bolt or one from an absolute trusted source would be my only choice. Bolts to mount GPS and iPhones can be brass, for all that matters.

As for brittle fractures: it usually happens with lost motion; so much slop it is hammered and hammered into submission. Softer bolts tend to deform under such loads, and this may not be readily noticeable. Also, stainless, with its high content of nickel and chrome, tends to be somewhat less strong, although there are very strong grades of stainless. The common ones are tough, but not strong. Krieger rifle barrels of Wisconsin, makers of word class rifle barrels, states on their website that they do not recommend stainless for very cold climates, and require a substantial diameter increase when going from their 4145RS CM barrel material to the stainless 416R material. Perhaps they are being extra cautious, but with their track record, I would tend to agree with them and take their word for it.

Sorry for the book, it tends to be how I write.
 

bob dirt

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autoteach said:
In some high vibration applications, the higher grades tend to fail in a brittle fracture. I have seen this many times before, especially in snowmobile suspension. We install grade 5 in those locations due to that fact.
we have had the same problems in our Polaris dirt machines. grade 5 is apparently less brittle. I also have snapped grade 8 heads on a wheel on a scissor lift...not cool :(
 

Duckhead

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I thought I posted why I started this thread......snapped two bolts on a Pelican rear trunk on my KLR......got me thinking about most of the skid pans we buy after market for our bikes and the replacement bolts, which got me wondering about the entire steel quality issue. I have a 5th wheel which is mounted by a Goose neck hitch....2 inch ball......holding 9K lbs under stress constantly.....lots of science in one blob of steel.
 

Kelvininin

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We can get as fancy or not as we want. I do thermal industrial waste water treatment. Boiling water and corrosion abatement goes hand in hand. I work with a lot of $$$ sometimes exotic alloys, duplex stainless, 6% mollys, high nickle alloys such as C-276. So finding compatible fasteners that can handle the severe duties we require gets interesting at times.

But for most applications, gr 5 for high vibration applications, gr 8 for everything else, will pretty much cover most applications in the real world, especially in Jon Q Public's garage.
 

autoteach

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Also, just for reference, bolt ratings are for their ultimate tensile strength. Any steel that can make that rating will make it into the hardware store. If you want a $500 bolt, you consider more than just the ultimate strength. The steel company that we work with said that they commonly are reviewing failures (totally awesome lab, btw) for steel that doesn't belong to them but a customer wanted to find the answer to the failure. This is where I learned about the large variance in chemical makeups for the same rating bolt.
 
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