Tourance Next?
- Thread starter avc8130
- Start date
IMO the EXPs are great tyres for grip in all weathers , ran mine in subzero hoare frosts and not a pip from the TC or ABS though don't have a reputation for stellar mileage on the rear though I suspect its more about the rider , mine swapped out at 4.5k miles (from memory) and I could have probably got another 500miles before it was (UK) illegal, suspect my K60 rear isn't going to be much better
avc8130 said:
I loved my numerous sets of Tournace EXP's, and as such I think the new Tourance NEXT should be even better. Here's an interesting tidbit here:
http://motorsportsnewswire.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/metzeler-tourance-next-best-endurostreet-tire-according-to-magazine-motorrad-513136/
Of course, that's a German publication determining that German tire is best... At least they used British motorcycles for the comparo!
I know you didn't mention the Michelin Anakee 3, AVC, but if you were thinking about it do check out the Anakee 3 thread with my comments about them. I put on a set because all the suppliers I could find were out of Tourance EXP's when I went my rubber started looking thin... plus I wanted to try something different. Wish I hadn't switched. Don't get me wrong, the Anakee 3's are good tires, and slightly better than the Tourance EXP's off-road, but IMHO they are *NOT* as good on-road if you like to ride quickly when the road snakes up.
I'll be trying the Metzeler Tourance NEXT's when I wear out these Michelin Anakee 3's.
Just FYI...
Dallara
~
I've been looking at the Anakee 3s. I ran a set of 2's before the set of Tourances I just burned.Dallara said:I loved my numerous sets of Tournace EXP's, and as such I think the new Tourance NEXT should be even better. Here's an interesting tidbit here:
http://motorsportsnewswire.wordpress.com/2013/05/13/metzeler-tourance-next-best-endurostreet-tire-according-to-magazine-motorrad-513136/
Of course, that's a German publication determining that German tire is best... At least they used British motorcycles for the comparo!
I know you didn't mention the Michelin Anakee 3, AVC, but if you were thinking about it do check out the Anakee 3 thread with my comments about them. I put on a set because all the suppliers I could find were out of Tourance EXP's when I went my rubber started looking thin... plus I wanted to try something different. Wish I hadn't switched. Don't get me wrong, the Anakee 3's are good tires, and slightly better than the Tourance EXP's off-road, but IMHO they are *NOT* as good on-road if you like to ride quickly when the road snakes up.
I'll be trying the Metzeler Tourance NEXT's when I wear out these Michelin Anakee 3's.
Just FYI...
Dallara
~
I liked my Tourances better than I did my Anakee 2s so that is why I was gonna give the Nexts the nod over the 3s next.
Trust me, I rip this bike like a sport bike. Hanging off and ringing her like a fool. Other than the Battlewing...I haven't found a tire that didn't work on the road acceptably.
My stock Battlewings made it 4800 miles of slipping and sliding around.
Anakee 2s were next. They brought me 8k miles.
Tourances were next. 6k brought those to their knees.
I am still running the Tourance front, along with a take-off Battlewing to get me to the next set. I'm back to slipping and sliding in the rear.
One of the guys I rode to TX with had Anakee 3s. He was smitten with them. We rocked through twisties fully loaded. 30+ over the posted yellow diamonds were common entry speeds. Neither the Tourance nor the A3 hinted of any trouble.
ac
avc8130 said:
I can slide my rear Anakee 3 like a *MAYPOP*... and while in TCS-1, if that gives you any idea of how dicey it gets when it's on its edge. Up until then it's OK, but get it near the edge of the tread it lets go worse than than somebody with IBS after six cups of coffee and a bran muffin.
Something the Tourance EXP's (3 fronts, 5 rears in 28,650 miles) never did... No matter how hard I rode them.
Note, I haven't biffed it yet, or really even close. But the first time it did it it spooked me pretty good... Corner I had done a thousand times. Good, warm weather. Clean pavement, etc. On a corner where I could *RAIL* the EXP's like a road racer. The Anakee 3 slipped like it was on ice when it got it on edge. I even went back and did it again a couple of times just to make sure it wasn't a fluke. Now I know the potential is there and ride it accordingly, and other than that they're great.
But I won't be buying the Anakee 3's after I can spoon these off.
Just FYI... YMMV, and perceptions may vary, too.
Dallara
~
With you guys,
Deathwings felt crap on my GS and on the Demo S10 I rode with them on, had a pair of Anakee 2's on a loaner GS and they felt awful, so much so I even checked the tyre pressures, the bike felt like the steering bearings were shot, did not want to turn, and when it did it wanted to tuck - truly awful.
Never been able to get the EXP's to misbehave on the GS or the S10, so I have a certain level of trust with Metzeler.
The last few years I have loved all the Dunlops I have used, especially Roadsmarts which I have had on superbikes and the GS, so will probably go with either a Roadsmart 2, TR91's or Tourance next - depending on what deal I can get from my supplier.
Deathwings felt crap on my GS and on the Demo S10 I rode with them on, had a pair of Anakee 2's on a loaner GS and they felt awful, so much so I even checked the tyre pressures, the bike felt like the steering bearings were shot, did not want to turn, and when it did it wanted to tuck - truly awful.
Never been able to get the EXP's to misbehave on the GS or the S10, so I have a certain level of trust with Metzeler.
The last few years I have loved all the Dunlops I have used, especially Roadsmarts which I have had on superbikes and the GS, so will probably go with either a Roadsmart 2, TR91's or Tourance next - depending on what deal I can get from my supplier.
Hmph. That is interesting. I can get the same reaction with the Battlewings.Dallara said:
I had a hair-raising experience on some Tourances this past Monday. I was riding my buddy's GS1200 and he was riding the S10. The GS had Tourances also. We went around a curve and I found some sand (I think?). Either way, the rear stepped WAY out. Luckily I juiced it and let the bike bring itself back in line. Bit of a "moment" as they say in racing. It was fun...because the rubber side stayed down.
My Anakee 2s were ok, but I echo Rashers comments about turn in. That tire was FLAT across the back. It was definitely not as fun as a sportbike tire.
I don't think Swampy reported any sliding with the A3. I haven't ridden it personally yet.
The EXP just looks to "road" for me. I do want a bit of gravel love in my tire. I'm also concerned of the life. Generally when people report mileage, I get MUCH less than claimed. I have seen 4k reports for the EXPs. At that rate, I would just put Pilot Road 3s on.
The Next has my interest. That wet road report is important to me. I frequently get caught in the rain and I have had a PR3 save my life in an emergency braking drill more than once. There is something about doing a stoppie, while turning, and avoiding the rear quarter of an asshole who turned left across your lane at 50mph IN THE RAIN that is very re-assuring.
ac
avc8130 said:
Mind you, the turn-in and compliance of the Anakee 3 are great. Read here: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=6488.msg139395#msg139395
It's only when you get the rear way, way leaned over, feathering the edge, that it loses composure. My Tourance EXP's were never like that. They were smooth and predictable right over until you were dragging lots of hard parts (with no skid plate, and with the much improved Stoltec suspension fore & aft). No sudden slides or slips. OTOH, the Anakee 3 rear loses it (again with no skid plate mounted and the same suspension) a bit before the pegs touch down, left or right side. The Anakee 3 is great until then, but like I said before, I spend a lot of time, in the Texas Hill Country especially, over on that edge, and that's why I don't think the Michelin is for me.
Back to the Tourance EXP's... I am notoriously hard on tires. Always have been. That's why the Tourance EXP's surprised me. Up until them I had not gotten more than 2,500 to 3,000 miles out of any rear tire, on any motorcycle, in decades. Metzeler Z6's. All sorts of Pirelli and Dunlop sport bike and sport touring rubber. Michelin Pilot Roads, etc. I could cook 'em to cord, front and rear, quick. I just figured it was the pavement down here, the heat, my weight, my riding style, or some combination of all of the above... And I'd have to live with it.
Then I got 5,500 miles out of the OEM Metzeler Tourance EXP that came on my Super Tenere, and I was quite pleased. At first I thought it was only because perhaps I had been gentle with it since the bike was new, plus I had a couple of long distance trips right off the bat where the roads weren't curvy. But then I got 5,800 out of the second rear EXP, and the original front lasted until I replaced that second rear. That was terrific mileage and performance for me, so I stuck with 'em... and now wish I had stayed with 'em instead of going with this Anakee 3 experiment.
Oh, and the Metzeler Tourance EXP's were among the best rain rubber I've ever ridden on, period. Also note that I am talking strictly about the Tourance EXP's. I positively *HATE* the regular Tourance. It handles like it's made out of wood, has no real pavement cornering grip, and inspires nothing in the way of confidence at speed. I have ridden several G/S's with 'em on there and I hated ever one. They may wear well, but then so does a wooden wagon wheel, but it doesn't handle very well.
I'm pretty sure when these Michelin's are worn out I'll be trying a set of Metzeler Tourance NEXT's...
Dallara
~
I was wary of the stock ones, but on a trip abroad my mate rented a GS with them on, as an ex racer (multiple National championships and lap records in four classes) he gave them a good workout including passing all the local hero's on the B500 in Germany (look it up on Youtube) after he dusted me off I thought he has gotta end up down on those tyres, but he reckons the grip was very good and rated the feedback as being good enough to let him push the tyres front and rear to the limit. The problem I have with these reports from riders much better than me is that they can often do a lot more with far less.Dallara said:
Wear for me is normally fast, but now I have been following the Mrs around (she has only just passed her test) my tyre life and fuel consumption seems to have greatly improved :
So many variables in tyre wear, but I know the EXP's are quite quick wearing, but with the GS I never did much better with Roadsmarts either, and I think there will not be much more than 25% difference from the grippiest rubber I can find and the most durable (K60's excluded) and I would rather have a tyre I like than save what, when compared to other running costs, is a very small amount.
I believe this. When I first set out on my trip I had all sorts of trouble getting ANY "feel" from the front Tourance (non-EXP). I made all sorts of suspension adjustments (more front sag, lowered the triples, less rear sag) in an attempt to get more weight up front for more "feel". Nothing helped. Then...after 1k miles...it happened. "FEEL"! I don't know how to explain it, but once the tire wore in a bit it suddenly "worked".Rasher said:I was wary of the stock ones, but on a trip abroad my mate rented a GS with them on, as an ex racer (multiple National championships and lap records in four classes) he gave them a good workout including passing all the local hero's on the B500 in Germany (look it up on Youtube) after he dusted me off I thought he has gotta end up down on those tyres, but he reckons the grip was very good and rated the feedback as being good enough to let him push the tyres front and rear to the limit. The problem I have with these reports from riders much better than me is that they can often do a lot more with far less.
Wear for me is normally fast, but now I have been following the Mrs around (she has only just passed her test) my tyre life and fuel consumption seems to have greatly improved :
So many variables in tyre wear, but I know the EXP's are quite quick wearing, but with the GS I never did much better with Roadsmarts either, and I think there will not be much more than 25% difference from the grippiest rubber I can find and the most durable (K60's excluded) and I would rather have a tyre I like than save what, when compared to other running costs, is a very small amount.
I'm about as ham-fisted as they come. My bike has full suspension and all of the known performance mods. I LIVE in the peak torque range constantly whacking on the throttle. Of the 3 tires I have used, the only one that would "let loose" on pavement has been the Battlewing.
ac
Getting 5800 from a tire you absolutely LOVE seems like a "no-brainer" to me.Dallara said:
I had the exact opposite experience with the Tourance (once I got 1k miles on them). I was consistently feathering them straight to the edges all the way home from TX to NJ. I was actually impressed as I was expecting a slip slidin handful from them. In fact, if these old tech Tourances didn't perform so admirably for me I wouldn't even be considering the Nexts.
I'm disappointed to hear your A3 woes. Have you had the tires in the wet?
Have you considered a set of Pilot Road 3s? They seem like they would be perfect for your use.
ac
avc8130 said:
In reference to Rasher's comments... As we all know a really good rider can go quick even on crappy rubber, or with crappy suspension, or with less horsepower... Etc., etc., etc. Skill can overcome lots of less than optimal equipment.
Interesting comments, AVC, about your experience with the standard (non-EXP) Tourance. Maybe that was the problem for me... I never rode on a bike with them for more than about 60 to 75 miles at a crack as they were on other folks' bikes I swapped off with, or in one case a dealer's demo Beemer. I just could never get comfortable and confident with the plain-jane Metzeler Tourance.
The EXP's, OTOH, that came on my Super Tenere felt pretty good right from the start. Of course, I was taking it easy on a new motorcycle when I first got my S-10 so maybe that gave me time to get used to the EXP's. And just for the record... 5,800 miles was the *BEST* mileage I ever got out of a rear EXP. About 4,800 was the worst, though I pull one at around 4,500 because I was going on a trip and I wanted a fresh sneaker on the back before I left.
I haven't really had the Anakee 3's in anything really wet. I caught some light mist on the early morning of one ride, and caught some wet roads on another, but both times it was mostly straight roads, and what few curvy bits I ran up on I was in a lot of traffic, so no real way to check out the Anakee 3's true wet performance... At least for me.
I have considered something like Michelin Pilot Road 3's before, but two things have kept me in the "Adventure" tire camp... One, every now and then - anywhere from about 5 to 15% of the ride miles I travel - I do venture off down dirt, gravel, or cinder roads, and a few times down some jeep trails and ranch roads. It's those times I want a bit more dual-purpose tire, but not for the reasons most might think, which leads to reason two. Second reason is that I have heard on more than one occasion that "adventure" rubber, like the Tourance, Tourance EXP, Anakee, etc., have a bit tougher belt and cord construction to try and avoid flats. I hate flats, so any every little bit helps, whether it be carcass construction, cord or belt material, or rubber compound... Or even tread design. If it helps prevent a flat I'm all for it. May all be malarky about them being made differently, but just the thought of it makes me feel better!
And so far, at least with Tourance EXP's, I never felt like I was lacking anywhere. I could more than hold my own with sport bikes, etc. in the twisty bits, they worked great in the wet, worked well enough off-road, and got good enough mileage that I was more than happy. My only mistake was thinking the *new and improved* Michelin Anakee 3 would be a big improvement over the Tourance EXP's. I wanted to try something new, fell for the hype, and now I wish I hadn't. No big deal, though.
The Michelin Anakee 3's are fine... Even better in some ways - like their compliance, ride, and lighter steering effort. Their only drawback in my case is right at the outer edge of their operating envelope. It's unfortunate that where it falls short is well within my own operating envelope, and that its disadvantages are apparent on some of my favorite roads and areas where I like to ride around the state. I can, and have adjusted, and hopefully these tires an I will have a good time together... Who knows, I may fall in love with 'em later. I've only got around 1,000 miles on 'em, so maybe like your experience with standard Tourances one day they will just "come in" and suddenly be perfect. And maybe they'll turn out to wear like iron. We'll see.
I wasn't intending this to be a slag-fest on the Michelin Anakee 3. Far from it. I think it's a good tire, and probably a better off-road tire than the EXP. Therefore it might be ideal for guys who want more off-road capability than most "adventure" tires, yet not as pure off-road compromised as something like a K-60. I was only pointing out that at this point in time, with the miles I have on the Anakee 3's so far, I don't care for them as much as the Tourance EXP's, and if I try and different tire next time it will probably be a Tourance NEXT.
Hey, in all reality we're all lucky. All these tires are pretty damn good... especially compared to tires we were riding even just a few years ago. It's all good.
Dallara
~
Dallara,
Slag away. It seems like we have a similar enough riding style and philosophy of use for the Tenere that I find your opinion quite valuable.
I have tried...as hard as I can...but I simply cannot ride more than 5% of my miles on dirt and gravel roads. They simply just don't exist by me that I have been able to find. Just like no matter how hard I try I just can't get enough extreme twisties in my riding balance to prevent a flat spot. The roads I commute on just aren't twisty enough.
In fact, lately when I have found dirt/gravel roads I have been with guys on Tiger 1050s. These guys are running 17" front wheels and 180 profile rears. PR3s on both of em. Neither had any real trouble with dirt and gravel ROADS.
I'm with you though. I want the ADV tire...mostly for the look and the DREAM of riding more dirt. So far, with the exception of the Battlewing, I don't think I have given up too much on the compromise.
K60s? NO WAY. Not for me unless I had a REAL dirt trip planned.
How about a personal question? When you are at the very end of that A3, are you in a street attack position? Upper and lower bodies moved over, attacking? Or are you in a more traditional upright position "leaning her in"?
Any chance you could post some pics of your A3s?
ac
Slag away. It seems like we have a similar enough riding style and philosophy of use for the Tenere that I find your opinion quite valuable.
I have tried...as hard as I can...but I simply cannot ride more than 5% of my miles on dirt and gravel roads. They simply just don't exist by me that I have been able to find. Just like no matter how hard I try I just can't get enough extreme twisties in my riding balance to prevent a flat spot. The roads I commute on just aren't twisty enough.
In fact, lately when I have found dirt/gravel roads I have been with guys on Tiger 1050s. These guys are running 17" front wheels and 180 profile rears. PR3s on both of em. Neither had any real trouble with dirt and gravel ROADS.
I'm with you though. I want the ADV tire...mostly for the look and the DREAM of riding more dirt. So far, with the exception of the Battlewing, I don't think I have given up too much on the compromise.
K60s? NO WAY. Not for me unless I had a REAL dirt trip planned.
How about a personal question? When you are at the very end of that A3, are you in a street attack position? Upper and lower bodies moved over, attacking? Or are you in a more traditional upright position "leaning her in"?
Any chance you could post some pics of your A3s?
ac
avc8130 said:
I'm with you on the K-60's. I know people love 'em, but just about no matter where I go I've got to ride a bunch of pavement miles just to *GET* to fun off-road stuff, and I don't want to compromise the handling performance of my bike on tarmac just for a few minutes, or even and hour or so of better off-road performance... Only then to turn around and have to ride back home on pavement. Like it or not, where I live I'll always have to ride a lot more on pavement than on dirt, so why would I want to compromise handling prowess on the surface I spend at least 85%-90% of my riding time on for a bit better off-road performance? The math just doesn't work... Base my tire choice on 5% to 15% of my riding miles> Or base it on where I spend 85% to 95% of my riding?
Seems like a no-brainer to me.
Besides, I rode flat tracks, MX, enduros, and hare scrambles enough that I can get along OK off-road with street-biased rubber. Sure, it's more work, and you have to be careful of surface conditions, line selection, depth of soil, etc., but what else is new? Everything is a compromise, so it seems the place I ride the least should be compromised the most, and vice versa.
And like you, the unfortunate truth of riding in my area is that there are a *LOT* of straight roads to get to the curvy, twisty, snaky, fun ones... Hence my rear tire can often get squared off, too. Hell, it's over 200 miles from here just to get to the real beginning of the Texas Hill Country!!! Doesn't help that I like to ride long distances on my Super Tenere, either. All too often that requires droning a lot on less than challenging pavement, so more squaring of the tire. All I can do is try to bevel the hell out of it, and get it back into rounded tread profile once I get to the squiggly bits!
Riding position? Well, first let me say this... Most of my WERA road racing years were spent on big, Jap superbikes. Endurance racing modded Kawasaki Z-1's. Sprint and endurance racing DOHC Honda CB750F and CB900F's, and even a few races on Honda CBX's!!! Most all had 19' fronts and 18" rear wheels, and I was just exiting the motorcycle road racing scene when 16" fronts and stiff frames were coming online. I rode a some WERA Formula II and III on two-stroke road racers, too, but in those days they had 18" wheels at both ends. Point is that big hoop front wheels don't distress me in the slightest... I may even like 'em better. Sure, they inherently steer slower, but then they're far more stable entering, during, and exiting the corner. They just take a bit more muscle, along with some understanding of their characteristics. One of the reasons I like 'em is that they pretty much negate the need for any sort of steering damper, either on-road or off. As long as you keep 'em rolling a big 19" hoop is pretty hard to deflect off-line.
Anyway, I never hung off a bunch. I get over the front like I should, elbows up, over the tank, and the inside shoulder dropped, head rotated up and turned in to look *WAY* ahead and around the corner, eyes level with the horizon, etc., etc. A vast majority of the time I don't move my a** around too much on the seat... Like I said, I just roll my upper body in and drop the inside shoulder. However, if the the fun reel starts getting turned up to 78-speed I may slide my butt off, but even then it's just an ever so tiny amount. I was taught to get the thing turned pretty quick, so for the most part I dime it a bit... Run it in hard on the brakes, trail them in to the apex as I get rolled in, get it turned, then picked it up and drive out. It's during this "pick it up" stage, and just before, that the Anakee 3 gives up on me and slides away. I've tried picking it up sooner, but that doesn't seem to help enough. Seems like once it lets loose over on the edge it takes it being completely picked up before it recovers.
Now mind you... I *NEVER* ride at 10/10ths on the street. I just won't. These days I ride at about 75 to 80% of what I feel like my pavement limits are. Maybe 85% if the going gets fun with the right folks (or I'm by myself), but I try to never exceed 90% of what I feel like I have in the talent/skill tank - ever - on the street. It's not worth it, and I like having at least that much in reserve for the unexpected. I used to run at 100% on the race track, and did it for years, and that was enough. Now the trick is to always get back home, period. No clipped apex is worth sheet time in the hospital these days, or worse.
I have to also admit that I'm not one of those who likes to drag things. When I was learning road racing the goal was to go as fast as possible *WITHOUT* dragging any parts of your body. Sure, my Bates leathers had velcro knee sliders on 'em, but they were thin pieces of leather in those days, and the only time you drug your knee was saving a slide or a tucked front end. You used your knee to unload the tire and let it get hooked back up, not to try and be stylish. If you can get most all of your real actual turning done while the front's still loaded then ground clearance is never really ever an issue.
OK, now maybe you have an idea of where I come from... And basically, for me, the Anakee 3's let loose right at the transition where I am picking up the throttle at the apex, and I'm just starting to pick the bike up from max lean.
As for pics of the Anakee 3's... The only ones I have are from no too long after I put 'em on. I think they had only 150-200 miles on 'em, maybe 300 max, in these pics...
First, the front:
And here's the rear....
Not sure those help ya' much since they're so new in the pics, but they're all I got right now. Maybe I can get some more once my ECU gets back next week... ECUnleashed wrote me today to tell me my ECU had been "delayed" and wouldn't go out today, damn it!!!
Dallara
~
::026::
I often used to be bugged by knowing I could have gone faster here or there, or when I messed up a corner by entering too slow, these days I am happy to come out the other side, 8/10ths is fine, maybe 8.5/10ths if I am chasing a sportsbike, or on a piece of tarmac I know real well. See too many crashed bikes and some unpleasant consequences.
nga
Active Member
Here is my rear Tourance Next. I had it installed today, made note of my odometer, and got soaked in the rain. Here are some pics:
I can say from following him today, they seem to be a good tire for wet roads ;D
Many of the latest generation Dual Sport tyres are starting to look very similar to Sport Touring tyres, the PR3 Trail, Tourance NExt and Annakee 3 all look like road tyres to me.
I tried to get some Next's for my upcoming tour, but there were no rears in stock so I fitted some Roadsmart 2's as I will only be on Tarmac (well maybe a few miles up a good graded road or two to reach a viewspot) so my only concern is grip (wet and dry, hot and cold)
The Tourance EXP's looked just chunky enough to blend in on an ADV bike, and probably were a 90/10 tyre, these latest tyres I reckon are just road tyres - not much wrong with that, but if they look like road tyres, yet still lack a smidge of the pure road tyres tarmac capability I may as well stick with the full on road tyres.
I really want a slightly more road orientated K60 - slightly smaller grooves that tail off towards the edge for extra road cornering grip and the same sort of compound as a PR3 or Roadsmart 2, that would look really good on the bike, perform well enough for 99% of us on the road, and really give a bit of bite off-road.
I tried to get some Next's for my upcoming tour, but there were no rears in stock so I fitted some Roadsmart 2's as I will only be on Tarmac (well maybe a few miles up a good graded road or two to reach a viewspot) so my only concern is grip (wet and dry, hot and cold)
The Tourance EXP's looked just chunky enough to blend in on an ADV bike, and probably were a 90/10 tyre, these latest tyres I reckon are just road tyres - not much wrong with that, but if they look like road tyres, yet still lack a smidge of the pure road tyres tarmac capability I may as well stick with the full on road tyres.
I really want a slightly more road orientated K60 - slightly smaller grooves that tail off towards the edge for extra road cornering grip and the same sort of compound as a PR3 or Roadsmart 2, that would look really good on the bike, perform well enough for 99% of us on the road, and really give a bit of bite off-road.