@Don T is using them and I was able to inspect them. Crazy tough, possibly ballistic protection. He's had some minor padding issues, and the customer service has taken care of him unquestionably. He's down in Columbia right now. I realize now why he doesn't have any framework. His are so stiff that the bag that goes over the seat can hold the side bags at an angle that matches the bike. The ones you have go straight down and need the frame support.