2012 Zero DS

Twitch

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I’ve seen the current model Zeros up close and they’re pretty neat imo. They're not small at all; about the size of a mid-range dual sport, mid 30s in seat height like the DRZ400. Looks like they’ve done away with the billboard/battery side cover on those newer models…good move.

 

Swagger

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yeee ... lectric bikes. I'd like to mess with one of those. :)
 

Venture

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Wow, the ZF6 weighs 300 lbs and gets 75 miles city / 42 miles highway. Definitely a commuter only bike, but certainly cheap to run. $0.63 to charge it says.

I'd like to ride one, I bet they're a blast.
 

bloke

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you can buy a nice clean low mile used 2005 ninja 250 that gets 75mpg for around 12 to 1500 bucs if you want a cheap commuter ::024::
 

GrahamD

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They are definitely getting better.

I just realized that these things could power my computer / shed / office for a ages in a blackout, with a little inverter.

They've been doing it in Japan with the electric cars during their blackouts.

And just think of the kick ass tire pump you could run on these, and the camp site and all the cameras laptops, GPS's, projectors.. 8)

They need a bigger 600lb one.. :D
 

Venture

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bloke said:
you can buy a nice clean low mile used 2005 ninja 250 that gets 75mpg for around 12 to 1500 bucs if you want a cheap commuter ::024::
True, but I'm guessing the acceleration of the Zero is what will really set it apart.

I'm not sure if this is good or bad, but look at the linear acceleration:

 

GrahamD

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Venture said:
I'm not sure if this is good or bad, but look at the linear acceleration:

S10 owners may appreciate linear acceleration, but to most of the world it's just a lack of character. ::)

But electric motors will definitely give you that "how the hell did I get here" moment when you look down and you are doing 160Km/H with no fuss.
 

Tremor38

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bloke said:
you can buy a nice clean low mile used 2005 ninja 250 that gets 75mpg for around 12 to 1500 bucs if you want a cheap commuter ::024::
And it cost $3+ dollars to go that 75miles... The Zero goes the far for $0.63 although you're making more 'gas' stops between 'tanks'
 

bloke

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Tremor38 said:
And it cost $3+ dollars to go that 75miles... The Zero goes the far for $0.63 although you're making more 'gas' stops between 'tanks'
Gonna take an awfully long time to make up the difference in costs then ::024::
 

digitalmoto

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Venture said:
Electric motors don't have a "normal" torque curve. They effectively max out as soon as electricity is applied to the motor. Electric motors don't have a sweet spot either. It's "all the power, all the time." And the equipment generates a surprising amount of heat which can damage the batteries and the motor.

Bloke's right. If you really want to do something for the environment and your pocket book, use an existing product which requires no new fabrication then hypermile it... all the time.

But that's not really much fun for most of us. We like the newest shiny things. Admit it. I like them too. Just don't start arguing about a lower cost per mile when you're ignoring the entire ecosystem required to fabricate and maintain a new, exotic, largely untested, shiny new gizmo. And definitely ixnay any discussion on performance. Performance always comes at a price whether it be MPG or $$$ to purchase. What happens when the batteries crap out in 5 - 10 years? Do you replace them? Can you afford to replace them? What about if you rupture one in a crash or drop? That isn't orange juice inside. Where does your power come from? Coal? Can you say acid rain? Wind? That kills migrating birds. Hydro? That kills salmon. When considering TCO you have to look at the entire product lifecycle and each input required to gain a meaningful metric.

My $0.02
 

Z06

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Tremor38 said:
And it cost $3+ dollars to go that 75miles... The Zero goes the far for $0.63 although you're making more 'gas' stops between 'tanks'
The local electric company wants to be notified if you get an electric vehicle so they can make sure the transformer can handle the load. Makes me wonder about the .63 cent claim.
 

justbob

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Z06 said:
The local electric company wants to be notified if you get an electric vehicle so they can make sure the transformer can handle the load. Makes me wonder about the .63 cent claim.
the load on the utility companys transformer is limited by the size of the breaker panel in your home, around here I think most are 100 amp service for gas heated homes and 200 amp for electric heated homes.
 

elizilla

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No, electric isn't zero emissions. But it's different emissions. The emissions are moved upstream to the power plant. But this is still an improvement, for a couple of reasons.

The gas powered bike has its lowest emissions when it rolls off the showroom floor. From there, it just gets more polluting, as people rip the smog stuff off, or the smog stuff rots. I mean who are we kidding - does anyone EVER do anything to their exhaust that makes it less polluting? No - the only people who ever touch their exhaust, have completely different goals. And rust never sleeps. But the electric bike has no smog stuff to get messed up.

The power comes from power plants that are constantly being updated with fancy scrubbers and emissions-reducing technology. Because of this, the ultimate emissions of the electric bike will decline over time. And if anyone's going to invest in a bunch of scrubbers and pollution controlling equipment, doesn't it make sense to do that at one big source instead of carrying emissions equipment on a million point sources all over town?

As for whether the grid can support them... when electric vehicles become a big enough power draw, the power companies will offer incentives to shift the demand. Electric vehicle owners will get a plug in their garage that is only live when the demand is lower, and the power will be cheaper there. This isn't new technology - there are already demand shifting schemes like this available in many areas. Here in Michigan people have been using this kind of power for their central air conditioning for at least 20 years. Demand shifting will allow a lot of electric vehicles to charge, without having to increase generating capacity.

The other advantage of the electric bike, is something that's not such a big deal to us, probably, but for Joe Public it's huge. That's the maintenance and storage of the equipment. The electric bike never gets gunky carbs, and the fuel never turns to varnish, even when the bike is stuffed into the back of the garage for the winter and ignored. It's far less likely to need trailering to the dealer for an expensive service in the spring simply because the owner let the carbs gunk up. How many gasoline bikes are ridden for one season, don't start the following spring, and the owner doesn't ever get around to fixing it? There are like-new bikes languishing in garages all over town; we've all seen them when they finally arrive in the classified for fire-sale prices. And this is only getting worse with the stupid E10 gasoline. Also, with no gas in the bike, you can store it indoors without worry about fumes or fire hazards.

Batteries, yeah, they'll have to be replaced eventually. But the battery technology is improving like crazy, lately. Moore's Law is totally in action here. In five or ten years when batteries need replacing, they'll be much cheaper, and better too. I wouldn't worry about the battery replacement costs.

I've ridden a Zero bike. It was very fun. If I was a dirt biker, I'd get one - the dirt application is pretty compelling. Why? Because it's quiet. How many trails are being closed to dirt bikes simply due to the noise? You can roll your eyes at the people who complain about the noise, and say things like "if it's too loud you're too old" but they're not going away. Electric dirt bikes are much less likely to piss off the other users of recreational land.

The range thing is the biggest hurdle, for me. Those numbers that Zero puts out, are insanely optimistic - I bet that in real life the range is about half that. And I like to use motorcycles for traveling. The technology just isn't here yet, to do what I do with a motorcycle, with an electric. But for my driving habits, I would love to get an electric car. Almost everywhere I go in the car, is within ten miles of home, and during riding season my cars sit long enough that they need Sta-Bil. Electric would suit my car driving patterns to a tee. If I lived in one of the states where they sell the Nissan Leaf or the Ford Focus Electric, I'd have tried to get one this year when I had to replace my cage. I usually prefer to buy a new car and keep it until it rots, but this time I bought a used car instead of new, because I hope electric will be available before a new 2011 car would rot.
 

tc9988

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this will keep you entertained http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_efficiency_in_transportation

according to the wiki a 140 lb person walking uses 80kcal of food energy per mile, assuming a 20% efficiency rate for gasoline that would equate to 72 mpg. Some motorcycles get 72 mpg, so the cost to go one mile on such a motorcycle would be 5.5 cents assuming gas at $4.00 per gallon. To walk a mile you would need to eat an apple which would provide 95 kcal. If an apple costs say 60 cents then it would cost 10 times as much to walk than ride. The conclusion is inescapable, it is cheaper to ride than walk ::012::
 

GrahamD

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Just to add to what Elizilla wrote,

There is one big thing that saves electric vehicles even with the poor energy density of batteries and that is the efficiency of the motors.

Solar racers, these days achieve 98% efficiency power in to power out.
Most electric only vehicles will achieve about 85-90%. Standard tyres and stuff will absorb a bit.

The average efficiency of a Internal combustion car is about 20% (fuel to wheel).

So if you plug that electric vehicle into a modern coal power plant, to pick the most shitty example, you get around 35% fuel to wheel efficiency.

So even with the crappy coal power plant you already have a big improvement in emissions and efficiencies.

Now we go to the service part of the equation. The service being moving a person from A-B.

If you want to move a person from A-B a 2 tonne SUV is around 0.5% efficient. In other words 99.5% of the fuel is not involved in moving you from A-B.

The zero will be about 11% efficient moving a person from A-B (coal fuel to wheel) (Zero DS ZF9) all things being equal. (reasonable speed, terrain etc).

Great for the city, but the energy density of batteries has to improve, OR people have to get used to taking it easy again. like they did in the 30's, when you had road houses and rest stops all over the place making a decent living and a 3 day trip to Grans place.

The modern brushless DC motor had two bearings to replace every 50,000km. (unless it's a BMW then expect them to fail more often) That's it. You can start then and ride for 2Km and shut them off with no adverse effects either.

I sincerely hope that Zero takes battery recycling very seriously, as there is not that much lithium around to have people chucking them out.
 

digitalmoto

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My point about the batteries is more about long-term availablity and compatibility. With each rev, batteries will grow smaller, lighter, and more powerful. And with each rev, the hardware interface and computing requirements will change as well. If you consider Moore's Law as Katherine noted, we see a doubling of performance roughly every 18 months. So if I bought a Zero bike today, in 5 or 6 years when I need a new battery, the "current" batteries would be 4 or 5 generations more advanced than the technology in the Zero (depending upon which version was purchased and where it fit into the release cycles). I wouldn't expect Batteries Plus to carry a replacement battery for this bike. And if the OEMs are gone, either through attrition or merger, you have no way to get an OEM replacement. You could possibly hack a new battery but then you have to workout the software and hardware interfaces not to meantion resolving the changes in weight bias caused by a considerably smaller/lighter battery that originally defined the center of mass for a motorcycle. For the regular Joe, that isn't realistic either.
Until this technology matures, I'd look at it as another high-tech gadget, more like an iPhone (which you replace every other year), than a car (that lasts decades). In the short term, you'd be better off doing as Bloke suggested and picking up a 250 that you can hypermile then take another look in 5 years once the market has shaken out and standards have been established. Until then, it's a really expensive toy.
BTW: Some batteries give off toxic/explosive fumes when recharging so storing it inside or in an enclosed space might not be wise. It all depends upon the exact technology used.
 

GrahamD

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digitalmoto said:
BTW: Some batteries give off toxic/explosive fumes when recharging so storing it inside or in an enclosed space might not be wise. It all depends upon the exact technology used.
The lithium chemistry is OK. And that's what I mentioned about hoping Zero if serious about recycling. They should recapture the lithium AND be able to supply upgraded internals as time goes on. Anyway, I don't see any standard cheap fuel tanks yet. :D

I think I'll wait till that happens before I buy a Tenere. :p
 
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