The end of a beautiful relationship?

[jackintherok]

The bike will be going to an engineer with much experience... will let you know what happens.

 

[Sierra1]

Yes, within reason. Starters do get hot. I don't get a warm fuzzy cranking anything for 2 minutes strait. Probably not even 60 seconds. . . .

Absolutely. I was talking about not letting it go when you hear that first cough that sounds like it started, and the headlights come on. If it hasn't started by 5 seconds, it probably won't without trying something else.

 

[Cycledude]

i highly recommend installing a lithium battery with 350 or more cold cranking amps then you can simply forget about all this hard start crap.

 

[jackintherok]

I did that 8 years ago (fitted an ETX 36C) and that was my experience as well. No more hard starts... until after a winter layover in early March this year. So, I bought a Yuasa YTZ 14S, which only proved that there's ample life in the lithium battery yet (despite a slight rounding off).

 

[ZigZag]

Was the bike definitely getting fuel to the cylinders? All the hard start strategies are good ways to start a flooded engine or compression start (bump start) even works for a bike with a flat battery. But if there is no fuel getting to the compression stroke you're dead in the water.
I hope its a simple fix at the engineer.

 

[Tenman]

If it’s flooded you should be able to smell it at the end can . The last hard start I had was was 10kish miles ago. My engine was at operating temp when it happened. Let it rest about 10 minutes or so and it fired up wide open. I rode home and tried to induce a a hard start by cycling the key repeatedly numerous times. Fired right up. A few months later. I tried it on a cold motor. It coughed and backfired a time or two. But it did start. I never leave without my antigravity jumper after a few scary hard starts in remote places.

 

[thughes317]

I could be wrong but as I understand it, when it gets "flooded", the cylinder walls get washed down with fuel which flushes the oil film away and causes a large loss in compression (temporarily) resulting in even more woe when trying to get it started.

 

[RCinNC]

I wouldn't wish a hard start on anyone, but it would be interesting to see what the results would be if they were able to put a compression tester on the cylinders while in the midst of a hard start and see what the compression actually was.

The randomness of the hard start occurrences always makes me think "electrical/ECU problem". Has anyone on here ever had their bike scanned by a shop during or immediately after a hard start to see if any codes were logged?

 

[jbrown]

Just as a data point, my 2012 that I've had since new has never experienced a hard start. I don't have any startup ritual. I usually just turn on the ignition and start it right away. I have often run it for a very short time to move the bike a few feet. My thumb has occasionally slipped off the starter button before it catches - pressing the button again starts it right up. My bike came with the 14S battery from the dealer, and I've replaced it once with the same type. My bike is garaged, so it doesn't get left out in the elements. I don't intentionally ride in the rain, but I have occasionally misjudged the weather and been caught in some rain.
So they don't all have this issue.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Hard start affected some bikes but not most. As others noted even for those which had it occasionally it is not the end of the world.

jackintherok - Glad you took it to somebody with experience. If those 12 year old injectors have never been cleaned, they are where I'd begin.

 

[Sierra1]

. . . . So they don't all have this issue.

I'll 2nd this. My OE battery was very low before I changed it. You could hear the starter lugging to start it. But it started normally every time. The only time there was an issue was when I didn't let it do its diagnostic thing before pressing the start button. Sometimes, but not always, if it started and immediately died, there would be an issue; WFO throttle afterwards worked every time. That's why I keep the button pushed until it actually is running; 4-5 seconds max.

 

[EricV]

The only time mine was scanned after a hard start was when I foolishly did an oil change prior to taking it to the dealer for a CCT replacement. Nothing unusual in the scan. I though it was a hard start at the time.

Hindsight: I knew the chain was loose... The extra lag in building oil pressure after the oil change caused the chain to slip, bending a valve and damaging a piston and resulting in a 3 month warranty repair, (I had the first CCT failure in the US with an S10). The S10's CCT is oil pressure assisted, along with a spring. Unlike some other Yamaha designs.

When I went to start the bike after the oil change, it started to crank and there was a light, but distinct snap. Had I stopped then, I may not have had engine damage. Others learned from my mistakes and got lucky after a similar occurrence. I kept cranking, not realizing what had happened.

 

[Cycledude]

We do have a 50+ page thread about hard starts so you Might be able to learn something new there.

My opinion is Yamaha didn’t use a powerful enough starter and that’s the main reason for so many hard starts.
We all probably should have been filing complaints with NHTSA years ago and maybe then Yamaha would have been forced to do a recall to fix this issue.

 

[jackintherok]

My thinking is that the E10 gasoline in the tank separated (went off) during the winter. When I tried to start it in March I expected the smell of gasoline after a few failed attempts, but it struck me that there was no strong smell of gas (after that everything smelt of gas, including me). E10 is more unstable in the winter, and we get some cold winter days/nights in Korea (subzero Fahrenheit). E10 splits to give ethanol as a bottom layer and gasoline (low octane) as a top layer and can leave a cruddy mess or varnish-like deposits (because it also reacts with oxygen) on surfaces, which is not good for FI systems. E10 is said to be OK in storage for 3 months. So, storage and turnover before your purchase mean that it doesn't remain stable for long in your tank during winter storage. Some say E10 is part of a master plan to 'persuade' folks to go electric.

 

[Sierra1]

STA-BIL 360. Designed for metal tanks and ethanol. I use it in my mower year round. 5 gallon tank will last about a month. Cheap insurance against gumming up the carbs.

 

[jbuhl]

I just experienced this. 2013 , just a scosh over 40K miles. in the garage all winter with half a tank of fuel. My garage stays purdy dang cool through the winter in colorado at 5,342 elevation. Just started trying to fire her up a couple weeks ago. blub blub blub nothing. I dont usually touch the throttle. But after the battery got low I charged it and started to hold throttle WO. Blub blub and a couple of burps like she gonna fire, but no and now I smell fuel. Wait till next day almost the same thing. Next day I try a bump start but my street aint steep enough to get a good run so back in garage. . Smell gas. wait another day and have her on a charger. This time I hook the battery up to the car with jumpers and start to move the throttle to 10% and 70%. Got a couple of burps. Next day was sunny so I moved her out into the sun and let her sit for a good hour or so. Then hooked her back up to the car and started running the starter longer than I normally dare. 10 , 15 seconds. finally she sputtered to life. Starts fine now. Next year I am gonna make sure I either use stableizer or drain the gas and make sure the engine is warmed up in some fashion.

 

[jackintherok]

jbuhl ... I never let it turn on the starter for that long (10 to 15 secs) because every time I got her going after a hard start it happened in the first few seconds (like up to 3 secs). I figured she flooded after that and there was no point in continuing. Rather aerate the engine...maybe leave for a while ... maybe heat the tips of some plugs... pray and have another go. This is so ingrained in the gray matter that I'd rather not try 10-15 secs... unless there are other bros out there that know better. Next year stabilizer ... right on.

 

[ZigZag]

If you have ever owned a motorcycle or car with carburetors, and I'm sue many here have, and had to start them in the morning after a cold, damp or frosty night, all of the above will be familiar. Leaving engines sitting through winters leads to fuel that is less enthusiastic to combust and the internals of engines such as spark plugs and other ignition components with condensation on them. In the days of hand chokes every vehicle I owned had its own unique starting sequence in cold weather. If you got it wrong and flooded the engine the only solution was to stop using the choke, open the throttle wide open and crank the engine until it started to fire. Electronic fuel injection has gone a long way to eliminating these problems but the basics of mixing fuel and air, compressing it and igniting it with a spark remain. The gods of internal combustion have to smile and give it a blessing. If just one of those things is not aligned then you go no where.

The washing away of oil on the bores leading to a loss of compression is true. I've seen it solved by adding a drop of fine machine oil to the cylinder through the spark plug hole and the engine would then fire up.

Good luck jackintherok.

Z

 

[Tenman]

Tenere is the first bike I’ve ever head of that washed the oil off and loses so much compression it won’t start.

 

[WJBertrand]

The engine compression shouldn’t be that sensitive to temporary loss of oil on the cylinder walls unless the rings/bore are quite worn. Squirting oil in the spark plug hole to see if compression improves during a compression test is a common diagnostic for worn rings. A healthy engine won’t show much if any change.
Running an engine too long with “washed” cylinder walls obviously will cause damage.