Suspension change on my S10

[Rockhopper]

I'm on the heavier side, weighing about 250-260 lbs without gear. I've had my S10 for a while now and have always wanted to get a better suspension setup for my bike as my understanding is that it is very undersprung for my weight.

In general terms, I'm looking at Racetech's general direction. They're relatively close to me and I really have no idea of sag, weight, etc. So I figured I'd just go to their shop and let them measure and build something for me that works.

After doing some research, I realized that I can easily go over $1000 if I want to replace springs and shock, so I've started to think about it a little bit more.

My bike has 12,000 miles on it and the main reason I want to do this is to stop the nose diving when breaking and to see if I can, for the fist time, try the miracle of custom suspension. I mostly ride by myself, but on occasion I do longer trips where I'm fully loaded. No pillion.

My knowledge of mechanical things is quite limited. I can do oil changes and other basic maintenance, but I'm not sure if I could take the bike apart and then put it back together. This, particularly, because I don't have a service manual and because I have very basic tools at my disposal.

So, given this context, my questions are:

1) Given my weight, should I aim to change shock too or start with springs and see how it goes and then upgrade the shock?

2) Is changing the springs something that I can do on my own? Is it easy enough to learn it with my limited mechanical knowledge?

3) Is RaceTech the direction I should be looking in? If it is easy to do with basic tools, should I order elsewhere?

Just looking to get some direction of what to do to get the outcome of better suspension on my bike.

 

[Terminus]

I am assuming that based on your description you have not adjusted the stock suspension? Just my two cents, but I would try adjusting the stock settings for rebound and damping as well as the preload on the front springs. Also the preload on the rear should probably be cranked all the way up to hard and also adjust the rebound damping on the rear. All of these are detailed in the owners manual and are not hard at all to adjust. There are also tons of threads on this forum talking about different adjustment strategies. Bottom line, I would make sure you adjust the system you have first before spending a ton of $$. I am heavier than you and I have mine dialed in pretty well. Would I benefit from $1000-$2000 in springs and shocks? Probably, but not enough for me right now. If i did a ton of cross country riding where I had a bunch of gear or rode two up, I would need to upgrade.

For the adjustment I would read up on the instructions and just head out with a flathead screwdriver and a socket for the front spring preload for a test drive. Go to a place that has systematic bumps like road seams. There is a State park close to me that has a very long entrance road that is in terrible shape. But it is the perfect place to adjust your suspension as it is not very heavily traveled and has regular bumps at every seam in the pavement sections. Make big adjustments at first and hop back on to see what it feels like. Then make big adjustments the other way. It won't take long to get it dialed in to what is comfortable for you.

You also describe the front diving when you break. Setting your front suspension rebound/damping settings will help with that big time.

Either way, good luck!

Here is one forum where there are quite a few members discussing their ideas: http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=13041.0

 

[EricV]

Just do the springs and have it done for you. You need a spring compressor for the rear and the fronts can be tricky if you're not familiar with fork work. This won't cost you a ton of cash and you'll have a very noticeable improvement.

I weigh the same as you and ran a much heavier rear spring for years on the oem shock w/o issue. A spacer is usually required to fit an aftermarket spring, but I'm sure Racetech is familiar with that. You should be adjusting the front suspension first to help with the fork dive, but some of this is simply the nature of forks. Braking transfers weight to the front and the forks will compress.

Honestly, doing springs front and rear and having Racetech help you set up the suspension for your weight, load and riding style will make a huge improvement at a very affordable cost. Do it and you won't regret it. Some day down the road in 30-40k miles you may decide to spend the extra coin for a custom shock and that will make a nice upgrade, but you can do that when you're ready and willing to spend the money. The oem shocks are pretty good to 50-60k miles before they start to really drop performance.

 

[Checkswrecks]

::026::
To both Terminus and then what EricV wrote. Adjust what you have and you'll probably be nicely surprised. It'll also be a learning step to swapping springs and other changes.


People are afraid to change their settings, thinking they are black magic, but the trick to suspension adjustments is to make notes, so you can always return to what you already have.

 

[magic]

Rockhopper; Definitely play around with your stock suspension adjustments before deciding what direction to go. I am just a little bit lighter than you and find the stock suspension quite adequate. Start with the factory settings in the owners' manual, then increase the preload front and rear and then the compression dampening. I looked at replacing the shock and having my forks reworked and it would have been about $2000-$2500. I'm sure this would be a great upgrade, but given the low resale value on these bikes, I just couldn't see spending that kind of money on a bike I may or may not keep long term.

 

[WJBertrand]

If you're coming from a road bike, part of that front dive is just characteristic of the longer travel suspension of the Super Tenere and most adventure/dual sport bikes. Most road bikes are in the 4-5" range on fork travel whereas the Super - T has 7.5", so it's at least partly a matter of personal adjustment. Don't make the front so stiff that you negate the advantage of that extra bump absorbing travel.

 

[Rockhopper]

Hey guys,

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I already played around with the stock suspension. I ride at max preload on the rear 100% of the time. I think front is the same as well.

 

[Xfool]

At 220 lbs I’m using a 17.8 kg/mm spring on my Tenere. For your weight the Race Tech spring calculator recommends a 19.6 kg/mm spring at 255 lbs. With adapter collars and spacers the cost is around $160.

That 19.6 kg/mm spring is a 45% increase over the stock 13.5 kg/mm spring rate and is way outside the tuning range of the shock. The stock shock will “work” but don’t kid yourself into thinking it will be “right”.

Here's my story:
Riding the stock shock with the stock spring I blew-out the shock riding two-up through Death Valley with my wife. With “nothing-to-lose” on the blown shock I took the shock apart and decided to rebuild the thing with stiffer valving to match the 17.8 kg/mm spring Race Tech recommended for my weight. Turned out nice!

In the process I also learned the stock shock has little compression damping and was able to reconfigure the shock to up the compression damping by about 80%. Getting more compression damping out of the shock required the use of a remote reservoir off of a yzf600 shock. Got that out of a junk yard for $40.

You have some hesitation getting involved in changing springs. I get it. Re-valving the shock is waaay outside anything you’ll want to take on. There are outfits around like Cogent Dynamics or Nor-West that are rumored to have re-valved stock Tenere shocks. Cost is probably around $600 and your bike will be down for a couple of weeks while they fool around with the shock.

The other option is $1,200 for an after market shock. Unfortunately there are no cheap solutions for the Tenere. My DIY approach was cheap on parts but looong on hours in the garage figuring it out. It’s a hobby.

Stiffer springs will help and if that change was 10% or something you could get away with it. But, the 45% increase in spring rate needed for the Tenere really needs stiffer damping to get control of the suspension – IMO.

 

[Rockhopper]

At 220 lbs I’m using a 17.8 kg/mm spring on my Tenere. For your weight the Race Tech spring calculator recommends a 19.6 kg/mm spring at 255 lbs. With adapter collars and spacers the cost is around $160.

That 19.6 kg/mm spring is a 45% increase over the stock 13.5 kg/mm spring rate and is way outside the tuning range of the shock. The stock shock will “work” but don’t kid yourself into thinking it will be “right”.

Here's my story:
Riding the stock shock with the stock spring I blew-out the shock riding two-up through Death Valley with my wife. With “nothing-to-lose” on the blown shock I took the shock apart and decided to rebuild the thing with stiffer valving to match the 17.8 kg/mm spring Race Tech recommended for my weight. Turned out nice!

In the process I also learned the stock shock has little compression damping and was able to reconfigure the shock to up the compression damping by about 80%. Getting more compression damping out of the shock required the use of a remote reservoir off of a yzf600 shock. Got that out of a junk yard for $40.

You have some hesitation getting involved in changing springs. I get it. Re-valving the shock is waaay outside anything you’ll want to take on. There are outfits around like Cogent Dynamics or Nor-West that are rumored to have re-valved stock Tenere shocks. Cost is probably around $600 and your bike will be down for a couple of weeks while they fool around with the shock.

The other option is $1,200 for an after market shock. Unfortunately there are no cheap solutions for the Tenere. My DIY approach was cheap on parts but looong on hours in the garage figuring it out. It’s a hobby.

Stiffer springs will help and if that change was 10% or something you could get away with it. But, the 45% increase in spring rate needed for the Tenere really needs stiffer damping to get control of the suspension – IMO.

I read a lot of that thread you linked and really quite couldn't understand most of it. Too technical for my level Sounds like you know what you're doing though.

I have also heard that such large increases in springs will require a new shock.

So, having this in mind, should I just get an Ohlins setup or will there be value in me going to Racetech to get measurements and getting everything custom built?

A little more on me. I've never done any suspension work on any bike and I've always been on the heavy side of all the bikes I've had. The issue is that I don't know what "correct" suspension feels like because I've never had it.

I'd like to start with something that will provide the most value at the lowest cost to evaluate if investing more in suspension is worth it. I just don't know what that is.

The stock suspension is undersprung, according to many folks, but it has served me just fine. I've been to Death Valley on hot days. It survived Racetrack Road with me on it, where a Touratech setup on a 1200GS failed and the guy had to remove the center stand just to be able to ride out of there. I am impressed with what I currently have, particularly given my weight. I'm just trying to begin improving and seeing if the difference is that much more noticeable.

A good example of this is the ECU flash I did with Anthony. I kept reading what a difference it makes on the bike to get it done and I was like "meh" the whole time until I finally decided to go for it. After trying it, I can honestly say that if I ever get another S10, the first thing that is happening is that ECU flash. I feel I'm at the same point with suspension. I keep reading it makes a world of difference and I've been "meh"ing this whole time and would like once and for all see what the deal is.

I started to think more seriously about it during my last trip, where I was flat footed with my knees bent when I put the stock suspension under load with me, gear, and full luggage. It really felt like the bike was 4 inches lower than just me on it.

 

[Sierra1]

I'm not understanding. ??? I'm 300+, and have my suspension set to two riders. I ride relatively aggressive on all kinds of roads. I've never felt the bike out of shape or "squishy". I had an RT 1150 that would move all over the place at 60k miles because the suspension was worn out. The Tenere will keep up with an R6 through all but the tightest curves. The rebound and dampening adjustments let me fine tune the ride. The Tenere suspension can handle crappy roads with ease that would shake my FJR to pieces. Both are ES, but it's still apples to oranges. As Mr. Bertrand stated, it is a softer (more travel) suspension than a road ONLY bike. What do not like about the current set up; what's wrong with the ride?

 

[Xfool]

Race Tech does not have anything for re-valving the Tenere shock. Their recommendation is replace the shock with their G3-S shock. That shock with a remote reservoir and hydraulic preload costs $1,350. The good news is that is about the same as an Ohlins shock so you can have your pick.

Penske, Wilbers and Touratech are in that price range as well. No easy decision between them. Those high zoot shocks will demand a fork re-valve so you’ll slip into that $2k suspension setup pretty fast.

imo KYB, Showa and WP suspensions on stock bikes are really high quality. The problem is those suspensions get re-sprung to match rider weight and that drives the suspension out of tune. Restoring performance requires damping to be re-tuned to match the modified spring rate. Figuring the damping correction needed is pretty easy: Damping needs to increase by the square root of the spring rate change. The hard part is figuring out the shim stack modifications needed to get that damping. As you noted that gets technical.

Whether it’s worth $2k to re-tune damping has no easy answer. Should you do this bike, or your next bike? It’s kind of a “smokem if you gottem” kind of deal.

Sierra1 is pretty happy with an ES. I am riding a non-ES.

 

[EricV]

I read a lot of that thread you linked and really quite couldn't understand most of it. Too technical for my level Sounds like you know what you're doing though.

I have also heard that such large increases in springs will require a new shock.

So, having this in mind, should I just get an Ohlins setup or will there be value in me going to Racetech to get measurements and getting everything custom built?

A little more on me. I've never done any suspension work on any bike and I've always been on the heavy side of all the bikes I've had. The issue is that I don't know what "correct" suspension feels like because I've never had it.

I'd like to start with something that will provide the most value at the lowest cost to evaluate if investing more in suspension is worth it. I just don't know what that is.

I ran an 1100 Lb spring on two different oem shocks for about 50k each. Same spring. The OEM shock will handle the stiffer spring just fine. I was riding endurance rallies too, with a fuel cell, gal of water and full panniers.

I currently run a Ohlins 30mm fork kit and a custom Touratech shock with adjustable pre-load, etc. Is it nicer? Yes, it is. Is it $3k nicer? Well, no, not really.

Just get springs for your weight and riding style from your local Racetech shop. It won't cost a fortune and you'll get a taste for what improvements can be had when the stock stuff is sprung for your weight. The Yamaha test rider guy is famous for being an 85 lb 4' 8" stick man. All our headlights are aimed off and the stock suspension is far too soft for anyone over 145 lbs.

If, after you do this, you decide that you want even more, then spend the extra coin on a custom shock and sell the spring or keep it as a back up. A shock spring is only about $100, plus a bit more for the spacer and install. That's a far cry from $800-$3k for a custom shock/springs and/or forks. Start small and see what YOU think about it. Sometimes simple is good enough that you don't need to worry about the next step. Only you know how you ride and what's good for you. Or good enough. Customs shocks require re-builds every 25 to 40k miles. You might want that oem shock and stiffer spring as a back up so you can ride when you send the custom shock out for re-build.

Just my 2 cents, having been down that road myself. I put 100k on my first Super Ten before I upgraded the shock/forks to the expensive stuff. I moved that over to my current Gen II Super Ten, because I'm not giving that stuff away and was happy with it. Getting time for a shock rebuild now.

 

[WJBertrand]

Restoring performance requires damping to be re-tuned to match the modified spring rate. Figuring the damping correction needed is pretty easy: Damping needs to increase by the square root of the spring rate change. The hard part is figuring out the shim stack modifications needed to get that damping. As you noted that gets technical.

I’d never heard that square root formula before. If correct, a 45% increase in spring rate means only a 6-7% increase in damping. Does the rule apply to both compression and rebound? I suspect rebound is the important one. Such a small damping change may explain why I’m relatively happy with my +28% rear spring and OEM damping and why many of us are getting away with just fitting a stiffer spring. Not sure I’d be able to perceive a 6-7% deficit in damping without some close side-by-side comparison testing.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Xfool]

Weight Scaling

The 19.6 kg/mm spring is a 45% increase over the stock spring rate. That puts the ratio of spring rates at 1.45 and the square root of that is 1.20. So damping needs to be increased by 20%.

To keep the same suspension “feel” both compression and rebound would need a 20% increase. For my setup I went to even stiffer compression damping because I wanted to get a 2:1 rebound/compression damping ratio typically used in performance shocks.

For the 28% spring rate increase you are running damping needs to be increased by 13%. That square root relationship of damping to spring rate comes out of spring-mass-damper theory also know as weight scaling a suspension.

 

[Xfool]

Clicker tuning for a stiffer spring

Took a look at using the clickers to tune for a stiffer spring with the stock shock damping. The 17.8 kg/mm spring I am running is a 32% increase over stock and needs a sqrt(1.32)= 15% increase in damping. That 15% damping increase target is shown below along with the stock shock damping force curve with wide open and closed clickers. The target 15% damping increase is within the clicker range of the stock shock.

To get damping right at low speed the clickers need to be at 9 clicks, one click in from the stock setting of “10”. That matches the target damping curve out to shaft velocities around 5 in/sec where the shim stack cracks open. Beyond 5 in/sec damping is way too soft for the stiffer spring.

To get high speed right the clickers need to be 2 clicks out from closed. That gets high speed right, but the damping force at low speed is literally off the chart. Damping that stiff at low speed is going to cause the suspension to pack.

That difference in clicker settings needed for low speed and high speed damping shows the basic problem. High speed suspension motions need stiff damping to control the stiffer spring. Getting that damping from the stock shock requires the clickers to be 2 clicks from closed. But that damping is way too stiff at low speed and will cause the suspension to pack. To keep the suspension from packing the clickers need to be opened to 9 clicks out. You can’t get both using the clickers, it’s one or the other.

Most riders twirl the clickers around to get low speed right. That keeps the suspension from packing and provides stiff enough damping to suppress the baby-buggy motions of the chassis. That leaves high speed under-damped and you just have to live with the loss of traction of an under-damped suspension that bounces you out of the seat once in awhile.
The purpose of a re-valve is to get both low speed and high speed right simultaneously. A re-valve sets the clickers at 9 to get the right low speed damping to control the chassis and prevent packing, and then re-tunes the shim stack so a clicker setting of 9 also gives the right high speed damping needed for the stiffer spring. Go to a softer spring and the clickers would be at 12 clicks out or whatever and high speed damping would be re-tuned around that open clicker setting.

 

[Xfool]

Shock shim stack tuning

I re-valved my non-ES Tenere shock for a 17.8 kg/mm spring. That is a 32% increase over stock and by weight scaling that stiffer spring needs a sqrt(1.32)= 15% increase in damping. Because of that square root relationship between damping and spring rate the stock shock on most bikes can be re-valved to handle a pretty wide range of spring rates. Shims for the re-valve are about a buck a piece plus shipping. Pay for installation and the shims are around $600.

The idea of a simple 15% damping force re-valve for the Tenere got more complex because the stiffer compression damping I wanted required a compression adjuster to be fitted to the shock to keep the compression stroke from cavitating. For that I used a remote reservoir compression adjuster off of a yzf750 shock I dragged out of the junk yard for $40.

Shim stack modifications to the Tenere shock for a 32% stiffer spring were straight forward:

• The rebound stack needed two additional shims to generate 15% more damping
• The compression stack needed an additional face shim, softer preload on the ring shim and two shims in the stack tapper. Those mods gave me the 2:1 rebound/compression damping ratio I wanted

While that sounds complex, the simple fact of the matter is I just hacked around on the shim stacks adding shims until the rebound damping curve matched the 15% force increase I was looking for. Adding shims to the stack tapper instead of the face gave me the curve shape I needed to match the 15% damping force increase across the speed range. I then hacked around on the compression stack until the damping force was ½ rebound. The shims needed to get those changes simply are what they are.

The compression shim stack I am using on the Tenere is a whole lot stiffer than the stock setup and will cavitate the compression stroke if run without a compression adjuster. The yzf750 remote reservoir compression adjuster fitted to the Tenere shock gives the shock the back pressure needed to run that stiffer compression shim stack.

Without the compression adjuster the stock compression damping curve is pretty much the limit of what the shock can generate. Push beyond that and the shock will cavitate on the compression stroke. BTW: Yamaha recommends the rebound clicker on the Tenere shock not be run at less than 3 clicks out. Cavitating the shock may well be the reason for that.

 

[WJBertrand]

Very interesting. Are your graphs mathematically or empirically determined?

 

[Xfool]

The damping force curves are computed from the valve port geometry and shim stack configuration.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Thanks Xfool. Like WJ wrote, very interesting.

 

[doc187]

very cool. You should start building these for forum members!