S10 and a T7

[Mutt]

Have any of you inmates pulled the trigger on a new T7 and kept your S10. I have a 2014 s10 with 55,000 Km and consider it the best bike I have ever owned and have no intention of selling it. My second bike is a 2019 Wr250r which I really enjoy and other than wishing it had a little more power i am overall pleased with the little bike. I am drawn to the T7 and would consider selling the WR to pick one up but am on the fence. To me the T7 seems to fit in the middle of the two bikes. I know I would like the T7, just not sure I would like it enough to part with the WR. I would Like to hear from the people who have both Tenere's and if they have any regrets.

 

[Mak10]

I think you would miss all that you like about the WR. I could see the T7 replacing a DR650 and being a fantastic upgrade.

 

[fredz43]

I sold my very well set up 2014 DR650 and got one of the first T7's in the US. I loved the engine and overall handling ,changed the shock spring as the OEM in known to be too lightly sprung for most riders. Still wasn't as good as my full Cogent suspension of my DR650. Didn't realize how the T7 was physically bigger than my DR until I switched bikes with a DR650 riding buddy on a ride. After 1,000 miles, I decided that it was just over my limit physically for the type of adv/dual sport riding I like to do. I got myself in a situation while riding alone off road that took all I have to get out of and this wasn't incredibly technical terrain, just soft and narrow, which made it difficult to turn around and get out of there. More than I need at 77 years old. Sold the T7 very easily, found another DR650 that has about half the upgrades I had on mine and will build it to the same specs as the one I sold. Shoulda, woulda, coulda.....

I am on my second S10, a 14 ES with a bit over 40,000 miles on it. Love it and will be keeping it. Never did consider the T7 to be a replacement for the S10, but thought it would replace the DR and it would for many, perhaps most riders, but not for me.

 

[Sierra1]

. . . . To me the T7 seems to fit in the middle of the two bikes. . . .

I only have the T12. The T7, to me, was never meant to replace the T12. It's definitely "an addition to" bike. I agree with Mak, it shouldn't replace your WR either. Unless of course you can ride like that guy who was using the T7 as a trial bike.

 

[s.ga.rider]

I spoke with the dealer tues about trading the s10 on the t7. I was going to do that and sell my 690 and just have the 1 bike. We worked out a price I was happy with. I rode the s10 an hour to the dealer today to do the trade. The sales manager offered me $2000 less than the salesman. He said the used market was bad right now... Bs... I told him no way and got my stuff and left. I was pissed. Wasted 2 hours of driving. At least I hit some dirt on the way back.

 

[twinrider]

If I lived in a place with a lot of open desert type dirt riding or endless miles of dirt roads, I might consider the T7. But I don't and to me it looks too big to be a good solo dirt bike (good luck pulling it out of a ditch alone), and the tube wheels/no cruise rule it out as a road touring bike. I learned that lesson from owning a 2016 Africa Twin.

 

[gunslinger_006]

I spoke with the dealer tues about trading the s10 on the t7. I was going to do that and sell my 690 and just have the 1 bike. We worked out a price I was happy with. I rode the s10 an hour to the dealer today to do the trade. The sales manager offered me $2000 less than the salesman. He said the used market was bad right now... Bs... I told him no way and got my stuff and left. I was pissed. Wasted 2 hours of driving. At least I hit some dirt on the way back.

Dealers are almost without exception, fraudulent scum. At any dealer you can find a few good souls in sales or finance, maybe there is one good service writer out of six, but the rest are vile creatures who secretly despise you as the customer.

 

[ballisticexchris]

Dealers are almost without exception, fraudulent scum. At any dealer you can find a few good souls in sales or finance, maybe there is one good service writer out of six, but the rest are vile creatures who secretly despise you as the customer.

I found this out also when purchasing my Super Tenere. Only thing I had going for me is I was a cash buyer which gave me 100% control to secure a good deal. The bait and switch tactics some of these dealers use are borderline illegal.

The other big thing to consider is the T700 being a first year model. Very hard to find a good deal on those. Dealers know they can get well over MSRP and are taking advantage of it.

 

[ballisticexchris]

There is a really cool negotiating trick that a cash buyer can use to get a smoking deal on vehicles that are marked up due to being first year or popularity. The worse your credit is the better it works. I have not used it but my coworker has and got a car for over 10,000.00 cheaper than anyone else could. And it was a first year model.

So you negotiate the total price of the vehicle as far down as you can with the dealers finance department AFTER you secure a high rate long term loan. Just make sure that the loan does not have any early payoff penalty (read the fine print) The dealers make more profit on just the loan than any other aspect of the purchase.

It is very easy to get rock bottom pricing on new model vehicles this way. After you get off the lot and are home simply call the finance company or wait until your first payment comes in and pay it in full. Now comes the fun part!! As soon as your payment clears you will get a call from the dealer asking about it. You just act innocent and say the terms of the loan were too hard to swallow so you decided to pay it off early.

The bad news is you will have burned a bridge with that dealer and will never be able to go back there again. I'm actually going to try both cash and financing the next time I buy a vehicle to see how low I can get it for. If it was not for covid I would have a great time testing out cars and getting all the way to the "back room" and just walk out.

 

[ballisticexchris]

I get joy screwing with crooked dealerships that hire sales, service and finance criminals.

 

[Eville Rich]

Have any of you inmates pulled the trigger on a new T7 and kept your S10. I have a 2014 s10 with 55,000 Km and consider it the best bike I have ever owned and have no intention of selling it. My second bike is a 2019 Wr250r which I really enjoy and other than wishing it had a little more power i am overall pleased with the little bike. I am drawn to the T7 and would consider selling the WR to pick one up but am on the fence. To me the T7 seems to fit in the middle of the two bikes. I know I would like the T7, just not sure I would like it enough to part with the WR. I would Like to hear from the people who have both Tenere's and if they have any regrets.

I'm in the same situation, with a wr250r I like and a S10 I also like. But I see the benefit of a T7. Personally, I'm going to hold off until the first couple of years of sales work their way through. But I have a hard time thinking the T7 can replace the S10. I think more likely the WR, but I also need to think about all three having different purposes. That's said, the WR might be the one to go as the reality of how I ride off-road is that I'd like a little more capability in getting to the trails or carrying camping gear than the WR can really do. And my dirt riding isn't that extreme. But the tossability of the WR would be missed, I think.

It's a conundrum. And that's part of the reason I'm going to hold off making a decision. I have more I want to do with the WR250R and sort of like the challenge of working within the limits of the 250.

Eville Rich
2016 S10
2015 WR250R

 

[Checkswrecks]

I had a KTM 690r and sold it because of the amount of overlap with the S10, so will not repeat that mistake with the T7.

 

[lund]

Its interesting you say that because as much as there is this conception that cash buyers get a better deal, truth of the matter they actually don't, unlike a garage sell, LOL. In fact generally cash buyers pay the most.
I was in the power sport business for many years and let me explain why that is and how it works.
Dealer profit margin is very tight, on average of $1500.00 per unit sold depending on what it is. A dirt bike vs a large cruiser will have a different profit margin but it is not what most believe it is.
What is important to remember is the dealer won't sell without a profit or they just as well close their doors.
So thinking you get a smoking deal with cash when a dealer profit margin is regulated by the manufacture set price is a misconception. Dealer's are allowed to sell below manufactures set pricing but not above, that is in dealer contracts.
Now how you CAN get deals from dealers and yes you can save your self a lot of money this way and dealers will also love you for it.
You FINANCE the whole deal.
How this works, simply finance company make finance packages with the dealer, offering slightly different programs that will give the dealer a kickback for using them. The dealer will have several different finance companies available to them and generally will use the one that will give them the dealer the best KICKBACK....if you don't qualify, they will go down the line with the hope you will with the next financial institute. But generally with a lesser kickback program.
On average depending on what was sold by financing we could earn as much as $3,000 up and above the unit price on a $12,000.00 bike.
So if the customer worked out their deal close to purchase price the dealer profits well. But customers financing unknowingly can swing a far better deal now because a dealer will have a lot more room to make the deal go. Moving product is very important for any dealer but so is making a profit.
Now for a smart buyer getting the deal is important, finance the whole deal, dealers get kickbacks from the finance companies, buyer can negotiate a smoking deal. Now the last important part of getting a good deal, is paying out the financed loan 30days after signing the loan agreement. Its important to sign with a finance deal only if it has a no penalty payout. Today most all finance companies offer this no penalty payout. Simply it is a game of numbers, on average they know the majority of customers will not payout their loan 30 days after but by offering this incentive it does brings customers in.

Hope that helps understand

 

[gunslinger_006]

There is a really cool negotiating trick that a cash buyer can use to get a smoking deal on vehicles that are marked up due to being first year or popularity. The worse your credit is the better it works. I have not used it but my coworker has and got a car for over 10,000.00 cheaper than anyone else could. And it was a first year model.

So you negotiate the total price of the vehicle as far down as you can with the dealers finance department AFTER you secure a high rate long term loan. Just make sure that the loan does not have any early payoff penalty (read the fine print) The dealers make more profit on just the loan than any other aspect of the purchase.

It is very easy to get rock bottom pricing on new model vehicles this way. After you get off the lot and are home simply call the finance company or wait until your first payment comes in and pay it in full. Now comes the fun part!! As soon as your payment clears you will get a call from the dealer asking about it. You just act innocent and say the terms of the loan were too hard to swallow so you decided to pay it off early.

The bad news is you will have burned a bridge with that dealer and will never be able to go back there again. I'm actually going to try both cash and financing the next time I buy a vehicle to see how low I can get it for. If it was not for covid I would have a great time testing out cars and getting all the way to the "back room" and just walk out.

I do this every time.

You *never* tell them you have your own financing. You let them bend over to give yoh a deal because they make their money on financing, then at the last second you say “if you can beat this existing offer from my credit union” and they cant do it.

If they can do it: Jokes on them. I will pay this off in a year or less anyway (would never take a loan with early payoff penalty). You wont make much on interest even if i use your bank. I could have bought in cash, i finance and pay off fast to build my credit.

 

[lund]

I have both the s10 and T7 and honestly this summer I have been on the T7 more then the s10 and mostly because it is the new thing.
But it really depends what your idea bike is if your going with one only.
Being tied to Yamaha I get many choices, the first thing is knowing what your plans are. The T7 falls in a weird spot, its not quite a dirt smasher nor is it a long distance logger though it can do both, it all depends on your preference.
Personally I like the s10 for any long haul riding, while the T7 is awesome for weekend trips but off trail i'll grab any dirt bikes over a T7 or s10.

 

[SHUMBA]

If I lived in a place with a lot of open desert type dirt riding or endless miles of dirt roads, I might consider the T7. But I don't and to me it looks too big to be a good solo dirt bike (good luck pulling it out of a ditch alone), and the tube wheels/no cruise rule it out as a road touring bike. I learned that lesson from owning a 2016 Africa Twin.

Hmmmm...for the price of the T7, I'd spend about the same on a very gently used Africa Twin. The AT is a great ride.
Presently, I'm running a 2018 S Tenere, lovin it!! But as I grow older, I will need a lighter bike, something that I can pick up by myself, heck I can't pick up the Tenere.
I'm in Ontario Canada and although I would like to own two bikes, it is cost prohibitive from an insurance aspect because there is no discount or price reduction on additional bikes.
The most fun I had on a bike was a Honda 250 dual sport, which I was able to get upright on my own.
Cause when you are in the middle of nowhere, it really sucks when you drop your bike. The T7 is too tall for me and the seat is a fixed height.
SHUMBA


Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk

 

[ballisticexchris]

Its interesting you say that because as much as there is this conception that cash buyers get a better deal, truth of the matter they actually don't, unlike a garage sell, LOL. In fact generally cash buyers pay the most.
I was in the power sport business for many years and let me explain why that is and how it works.
Dealer profit margin is very tight, on average of $1500.00 per unit sold depending on what it is. A dirt bike vs a large cruiser will have a different profit margin but it is not what most believe it is.
What is important to remember is the dealer won't sell without a profit or they just as well close their doors.
So thinking you get a smoking deal with cash when a dealer profit margin is regulated by the manufacture set price is a misconception. Dealer's are allowed to sell below manufactures set pricing but not above, that is in dealer contracts.
Now how you CAN get deals from dealers and yes you can save your self a lot of money this way and dealers will also love you for it.
You FINANCE the whole deal.
How this works, simply finance company make finance packages with the dealer, offering slightly different programs that will give the dealer a kickback for using them. The dealer will have several different finance companies available to them and generally will use the one that will give them the dealer the best KICKBACK....if you don't qualify, they will go down the line with the hope you will with the next financial institute. But generally with a lesser kickback program.
On average depending on what was sold by financing we could earn as much as $3,000 up and above the unit price on a $12,000.00 bike.
So if the customer worked out their deal close to purchase price the dealer profits well. But customers financing unknowingly can swing a far better deal now because a dealer will have a lot more room to make the deal go. Moving product is very important for any dealer but so is making a profit.
Now for a smart buyer getting the deal is important, finance the whole deal, dealers get kickbacks from the finance companies, buyer can negotiate a smoking deal. Now the last important part of getting a good deal, is paying out the financed loan 30days after signing the loan agreement. Its important to sign with a finance deal only if it has a no penalty payout. Today most all finance companies offer this no penalty payout. Simply it is a game of numbers, on average they know the majority of customers will not payout their loan 30 days after but by offering this incentive it does brings customers in.

Hope that helps understand

Cash is king!! It puts me in the drivers seat. I make the rules and get the best deal. With a few phone calls and some research you can get almost any vehicle for less than what the dealer paid for it. If you see a bike that has been on the lot for more than a year they are more than willing to take a loss and make a bigger profit on a new model they can bring in.

So what did I pay for my brand new Super Tenere ES out the door? Let's just say it was a super duper smoking deal. Thousands under invoice and no hold back added. I could have even got it cheaper if I would have held out a little longer. The sales manager sweetened the deal with a really nice heavy discount on first service. I have honored their request not to publicly share the total cost. I will be more than happy to let anyone know what I paid in a PM.

I will say the finance guy was not happy at all with the deal. He could not get me out of his office quick enough. His only comment was asking me if I wanted the YES warranty for 1200.00. I laughed, and asked "how about 400.00" and it made him more pissed!! All that was on the contract was a huge price above MSRP and loaded with discounts, incentives, rebates, etc subtracted from the total.

And the dealership (overall) treated me and continues to treat me with honesty and respect. If I'm in a bind I know I can drop off my bike with instruction on what I want done and they will have only a gold certified mechanic do the work. I have a specific young man who I have wrench on my bike.

 

[fredz43]

I guess I am very fortunate to have had an honest local Yamaha/Honda dealer for almost 50 years. I bought my first new bike from then in 1973 and have been a loyal customer since then, as they have treated me very well all that time. They are family owned and now the 3 sons of the founder operate it and I consider them friends as well as being my preferred dealer. I have had the chance to fill in at the dealership occasionally since I retired in 2003, both in sales and setup. It was made very clear to me when I worked in sales that we treat people as we would like to be treated. With that attitude,it makes it an enjoyable experience as you try to help someone buy a toy and when it works out they are happy that they got the toy and I feel good as I was able to help them get it. BTW, I get no commission, so my goal is to be helpful to the customer and the dealership and I take pride when I can accomplish that. Of course there are a small minority of customers who are jerks with an attitude, just as evidently there are dealers who are jerks and it takes a lot patience to listen to their know it all spiel as they try to impress.

With the exception of this year, because of the virus they have an open house 3 day weekend each May and thousands of riders attend. It is always a fun weekend, with demo rides, vendor displays, live music and they raffle off a new Gold Wing. Customers from all over the US attend.

The T7 didn't work out for me at this stage in my life, but I had to find that out to my own satisfaction. I never once considered it as a replacement for the 14 ES, since the ES is used 99% of the time on pavement for me and I consider it the best sport touring bike out of the many I have had. I considered it as a possible replacement for my totally setup 14 DR650, but the physical dimensions pushed it slightly over the edge for that use for me at my age. It is an incredible bike, though.

As for dealers scalping customers on a new in demand model, some may do that, but I have two friends in the same part of IL that I am and we bought T7's from 3 different dealers and all 3 of us got them for under MSRP, including TTL. All 3 of us have good relationships with our dealers, so that may be one reason. Back on 2000 when Honda brought out the RC51, which was in such demand that dealers were advertising them for $1,000-$2,000 over the $10,000 MSRP, my dealer told me he had never had to do that to stay in business and he wasn't going to start, as customers remember such tactics. I got mine for considerably under MSRP and at the time was just another loyal customer.

So, I feel sorry for those who have dealers they regard as scum. I am sure there are many unscrupulous ones out there. Dealers have to make some profit to stay in business and keep their staff employed and they don't have to operate that way to do it. As evidenced by some of the above comments, some unfortunately do.

 

[ballisticexchris]

I guess I am very fortunate to have had an honest local Yamaha/Honda dealer for almost 50 years. I bought my first new bike from then in 1973 and have been a loyal customer since then, as they have treated me very well all that time. They are family owned and now the 3 sons of the founder operate it and I consider them friends as well as being my preferred dealer. I have had the chance to fill in at the dealership occasionally since I retired in 2003, both in sales and setup. It was made very clear to me when I worked in sales that we treat people as we would like to be treated. With that attitude,it makes it an enjoyable experience as you try to help someone buy a toy and when it works out they are happy that they got the toy and I feel good as I was able to help them get it. BTW, I get no commission, so my goal is to be helpful to the customer and the dealership and I take pride when I can accomplish that. Of course there are a small minority of customers who are jerks with an attitude, just as evidently there are dealers who are jerks and it takes a lot patience to listen to their know it all spiel as they try to impress.

With the exception of this year, because of the virus they have an open house 3 day weekend each May and thousands of riders attend. It is always a fun weekend, with demo rides, vendor displays, live music and they raffle off a new Gold Wing. Customers from all over the US attend.

The T7 didn't work out for me at this stage in my life, but I had to find that out to my own satisfaction. I never once considered it as a replacement for the 14 ES, since the ES is used 99% of the time on pavement for me and I consider it the best sport touring bike out of the many I have had. I considered it as a possible replacement for my totally setup 14 DR650, but the physical dimensions pushed it slightly over the edge for that use for me at my age. It is an incredible bike, though.

As for dealers scalping customers on a new in demand model, some may do that, but I have two friends in the same part of IL that I am and we bought T7's from 3 different dealers and all 3 of us got them for under MSRP, including TTL. All 3 of us have good relationships with our dealers, so that may be one reason. Back on 2000 when Honda brought out the RC51, which was in such demand that dealers were advertising them for $1,000-$2,000 over the $10,000 MSRP, my dealer told me he had never had to do that to stay in business and he wasn't going to start, as customers remember such tactics. I got mine for considerably under MSRP and at the time was just another loyal customer.

So, I feel sorry for those who have dealers they regard as scum. I am sure there are many unscrupulous ones out there. Dealers have to make some profit to stay in business and keep their staff employed and they don't have to operate that way to do it. As evidenced by some of the above comments, some unfortunately do.

My main dealer retired and it really saddened me. I did business with them for over 25 years and 8 motorcycles. I'm pretty sure I have found a new one that is almost as good but it does not have the "mom and pop feel" of Champion Motorcycles. It's really cool when you can walk in, pick out your bike with no stress and sign off on it without dickering for cost. Sadly that is not the case for me anymore.

I had a KTM 690r and sold it because of the amount of overlap with the S10, so will not repeat that mistake with the T7.

Yes Bob, after a lot of rethinking my Beta and Super Tenere are perfect bikes for the two main segments of riding I do. If I was to get "in between bikes" there are two that come to mind:

Yamaha MT09 and YZ 125X.

If I was to have only one bike in the garage the T7 would be hard to pass up. OTOH, there is no other bike on earth that is more versatile than a lightweight single cylinder dual sport. They are a perfect compromise for anything from hard core trails to cross country travel. If I was 20 years younger the Super Tenere would be the last bike I would consider for traveling cross country. Unfortunately as I get older comfort is getting more important than function.

500 mile days in the saddle on my Beta are pretty tough and not as fun as they used to be. I even dare say that riding 100 miles to the desert then 100 miles off road and 100 miles back home is brutal. The last time I rode with my club I got me and my bike a ride back in a truck instead of riding home.

 

[magic]

I'd like to throw a question out there for you guys with dealership experience. What's the real story on the hidden fees like freight and setup? When I bought my most recent new bike a 2017 DR650 in 2018, the dealer did not charge any of those fees. In fact they advertise "No BS pricing and no hidden fees". This dealer told me that freight and setup are included in the MSRP. Other dealers around here are charging $900 for freight and setup. The DR650 purchase was a leftover at a good price and they even delivered it. This was one of my best dealership experiences by far.