No idle and high idle problem

Fintenere

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I have already written about my idle speed problem in another topic but it will disappear there.
I opened a new topic and 'hope' that someone has or will have the same problem. ;)
You may wonder why I don't let it be my dealer's problem. I have tried.
The fault is a little nasty it has been never on trying to show it. Once got a fault code (60).
In Finland it has been sold about 60 1200XTs and dealers/importer they have so marginally experience about these bikes.
They also react a little wrong. It seems to be quite difficult to get them to believe what customer is telling them.
This is my first Yamaha and I like Tenere but it has had clearly more faults than my earlier Hondas and Suzukis.
So I need a little help to resolve this and 'hopefully' someone has the same problem so I know I'm not the only one who has.


I think it may be caused by bad wiring and bad contacts. This seems to be the reason to cooked headlamp harness.
I'm not claiming anything but I have examined the problem quite a lot.
The whole throttle body with all sensors has been changed in 11000kms. But after 3000 more I noticed abnormal idle speed (800) again.
The sensor operation may be disturbed quite easily by bad contacts.
I mean especially the accelerator position sensor throttle position sensor and the servo motor itself.
I have measured and tested them many times. Everything seemed to be okay.
It may be ecu too but why the problem disapears for a so long time.

If someone of you could test the idle speed? But it should be tested when you are riding your bike and rather on rough roads.
I also use quite a lot of revs when riding.
And test like this: Use clutch and drop the throttle down and check the idle speed.
Mine stayed mostly 1500-1600rpm sometimes 3500 and sometimes 800.
And why the motor is reving 3500, throttle valve is so open that it has to. This I think.
Quess was it a little s....y to get home when revs didn't drop lower than 3500. Fortunately then I had only 15 miles left.
The first notice about this problem was that I tried to change from the S mode to T mode when riding.
I didn't realize what's the problem, just wondering.
Then I was riding to our club's track day and after the track day it came worse. High revs and a lot of vibration.
Later I realized that It did not succeed because the revs didn't drop to idle speed.
 

Blue_eyes

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Hi Fintenere,

Sorry to hear that you experience these problems. My advice is to NOT try to problemsolve / identify / troubleshoot the cause yourself. These are serious issues that need to be taken seriously by your dealer. Fiddeling around yourself might only make it harder for the dealer / Yamaha to find the underlaying issue/cause.

I understand that your dealer / other Finnish dealers do not have a lot of experience with the ST. Demand that your dealer contacts Yamaha and that they send out an engineer from Yamaha to the dealer to diagnose the problem. If the problem cannot be reproduced at that time, have them take your bike and testride it until the problem occurs, even if that means that you will have to miss the bike for several weeks. Ask for an interim bike while they examine your bike.

Do not play with your life and that of other people, a bike revving at 3500 rpm's while it should be idle is a deadly weapon.

Good luck, keep us informed!
 

Fintenere

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Thanks for the answer Blue_Eyes

I have quite good contacts with my dealer. When the throttle body was chainged I did the job myself in their workshop.
Resolving the problem they also asked it from Yamaha.
By this topic I try to find out if somebody else had same kind of problem and so to get the solution.
I also try to help them for the next season if my problem will continue.
I have 100 kms to my dealer and I don't want to ride there very often.
Also bikes in Finland are so expensive and the season is short so I don't want my bike to stand there for weaks.
Last time when the problem appeared it was the end of the riding season and case stayed open.
Now we have winter and to test the bike next time it takes at least 4.5 months.
 

RogerJ

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

What BlueEyes said +1. Let YAMAHA sort it out.

For your information, my First Edition did a bit of high idle like that one time on startup and would n't go down. Stayed around 3500. It was on a cold start-up at about 2,500 metres of altitude. Also had varying idle speed sort of like you mention. Was on tour and it it stopped presenting the condition so I got home O.K.

After I got home and the bike sat for two weeks on starting it was very hard starting and would not idle in normal ranges. My tech here in Mexico thought that the problem of erratic and high idle was related to the fuel pump and specifically to an O ring on the "barrel" portion of it. It is a DENSO unit like the one used in FJR1300. If the dealer takes it out and separates the two sections have them carefully look at how the O Ring seats on the white plastic "barrel" part. On my bike the O-Ring was rolling a bit or collapsing not allowing the pump to develop and keep proper pressure. They replaced my fuel pump and so far everythiing is fine.

Just my 2 cents. YRMV. Good luck!
 

Tremor38

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

RogerJ said:
What BlueEyes said +1. Let YAMAHA sort it out.

For your information, my First Edition did a bit of high idle like that one time on startup and would n't go down. Stayed around 3500. It was on a cold start-up at about 2,500 metres of altitude. Also had varying idle speed sort of like you mention. Was on tour and it it stopped presenting the condition so I got home O.K.

After I got home and the bike sat for two weeks on starting it was very hard starting and would not idle in normal ranges. My tech here in Mexico thought that the problem of erratic and high idle was related to the fuel pump and specifically to an O ring on the "barrel" portion of it. It is a DENSO unit like the one used in FJR1300. If the dealer takes it out and separates the two sections have them carefully look at how the O Ring seats on the white plastic "barrel" part. On my bike the O-Ring was rolling a bit or collapsing not allowing the pump to develop and keep proper pressure. They replaced my fuel pump and so far everythiing is fine.

Just my 2 cents. YRMV. Good luck!
That is most interesting! So I guess your problem, which sounds much like Fintenere's issue, was caused by fluctuating fuel pressure. I'd say that's definitely worth look at, Fintenere 8)
 

Fintenere

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

I will check the O ring. I have plenty of time before next ::001::
My problem is a little different compared with Rogerj. Engine starts well on cold and the idle speed works fine.
Before changing the throttle body the error code and the conclusions refered to the valve servo motor.
Also Yamaha told that it has found faulty servo motors with R1 and R6. Bikes have the same YCC-T system.
After changing it I have got only the 800 rpm idle speed and the fault may be different. Perhaps the O ring?
But my nose is telling it may be the leads and connectors. It's possible that my nose is wrong.
And now I tell you a really peculiar thing what happened before changing the body.
This happened when the revs were 3500 and after getting them normal.
I rode into my garage let the engine run and began to examine the problem.
I touched (just brushing) the wire harness on the valve cover, engine stopped.
I started the engine again and the same happened. I was really ;D
Called my friend and told that now I have found the fault.
Started again but I didn't get the engine stop now. And NEVER after that. :'(
Believe or not but I was not drunk or dreaming.
This got me to suspect the leads and connectors. But Yamaha changed only the throttle body.
And now it has been verified part of the leads and connectors being quite bad quality.
Nice. Continues.......
 

Tremor38

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

How about Yamaha replacing the ECU? That's one more item eliminated.
 

Fintenere

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

I think/hope next they will replace the ECU and/or wire harness.
In the service manual the fault code 60 (pages 8-64 and 8-65) recommend to change the wire harness first.
I got the fault code only once and STILL I'm wondering how the engine stopped just brushing the leads a little. ???
But now as I have told we have winter and I must wait to spring and test then more.
Perhaps I will ask them to inquire Yamaha if they have something new info.
Now I can't do anything more just wait if somebody will have the same kind of problem.
If someone had it would help me to say that I'm not the only one and also it would help me to take my matter forward.
 

Koinz

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Sure sounds like you have broken wire in the harness or a bad connector. That's good that you found it. Those are very hard to find sometimes. Good luck with your dealer and the yamaha rep. ::022::
 

Tremor38

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Fintenere said:
I think/hope next they will replace the ECU and/or wire harness.
In the service manual the fault code 60 (pages 8-64 and 8-65) recommend to change the wire harness first.
I got the fault code only once and STILL I'm wondering how the engine stopped just brushing the leads a little. ???
But now as I have told we have winter and I must wait to spring and test then more.
Perhaps I will ask them to inquire Yamaha if they have something new info.
Now I can't do anything more just wait if somebody will have the same kind of problem.
If someone had it would help me to say that I'm not the only one and also it would help me to take my matter forward.
Maybe you've done this already, but have you actually checked the ground points on the bike..I mean going as far as physically removing terminals from posts and taking a look?
 

Fintenere

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Yes I have.
If I found all there is a separate ground (above the gear box) for the battery and another point for the rest.
Last summer I also took the ECU off and checked the couplers.
This I will do still once.
Last week ( I'm retired I must discover something to do) I took the valve cover off checked valve clearences (fine in limits)
took off throttle body checked couplers and tied them better.
I also took the chain tensioner off and checked it. DON'T DO THIS if you don't know exactly what are you doing.
Then I deticted also the decompression system, it helps starting (only 2 cylinders but 1200 ccm).
Winter time I try to check everything possible and then when it will be able to ride again I'll ::002:: my Tenere to know is it OK or not.
I must be certain that it won't stop for example in the middle of highway and maybe on the second or third lane.
It did this once when the problem was worst. What a surprise, a little ??? and also dangerous (warnings heard Blue_Eyes).
Fortunatelly there was a bridge work going and the speed limit was 50kmh.
 

RogerJ

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

All good points here about the wire harness having a fault or a bad connector. Also good points about the ECU. Sometimes ECU's are sensitive to over voltage, certain environments and it is possible for the information it holds to become corrupted as in all ECU'd motorcycles. I had a BMW R12GS ADV that was on its third wiring loom within 27 months and that is a very complex thin wired loom. The wiring loom fault resulted in sending faulty information to the ABS modulator pump such that ECU within that pump didn't know what do so it just got confused and died. I am talking about the BM here but you get the general idea.

Also had a known numbered fault that would not clear with the usual sensor replacements. It only cleared when they re-loaded all the software and the fault code disappeared.

Also sometimes where there are resistor coils at the sparkplug caps these sometimes operate out of spec and cause rough idle and running. I think the Super Tenere has these too but am not certain.

If your bike is under warranty it is Yamaha's job to sort this out. I wouldn't muck about too much with this yourself unless you want to give YAM an opportunity to say you did it and no warranty.
Get Yamaha to checking the wiring loom everwhere along it for the proper voltages and continuity. Especially at the connector pins that run to the sensors of interest that correspond to the fault code you got. That you touched the loom and the bike stopped is interesting. Sometimes, if the wires of the loom are very thin and have been treated roughly in fitting to the bike or afterward (eg. stretching or bending) there can develop a periodic discontinuity that produces problems of all kinds and does not send correct information to the ECU and particular sensors. Worth considering.

Also checking and if necessary replacing any coils. Also sometimes bad fuel and crap in the fuel pump can cause rough running.

Your problem seems to be a new one at least for me. Good luck and please keep us informed.
 

stevemac

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

I know this is an old thread, but I was wondering if there was any re-occurrence in the idle problem?

Unfortunately I'm suffering an idling issue too now. My bike sat for a couple of weeks while I waited for new tyres, it was started once and ridden less than a 100m into a garage and then sat again for another couple of weeks until I got around to fitting the tyres. After fitting the tyres I went to start the bike to take it out for a test run and the idle jumped to 3.5k. I stopped it and started it again and the same idle speed. When I tried the throttle it then jumped to 4k and only dropped slowly to 3.5k again. I let the engine get up to temp, but still the idle speed stayed high.

I spoke to my dealer who said he'd never heard of anything like it and confimred this after ringing around a bit. He asked if I could bring the bike in as they no longer collect. I wasn't to keen on this idea, but thought I'd get over early on a Sunday morning when the roads were quiet. This time when I started the bike the idle speed jumped straight to 5k and within seconds the engine warning light came on and the idle cut to 800 and wouldn't respond to the throttle. Needless to say the bike was unrideable as it just jumped around with the throttle response all over the place.

I also disconnected the battery to see if that would have any effect as I remmeber the bike not starting after the first time the battery was disconnected. I hoped there'd be some simple fault code that would clear, no such luck. At least this time the idle stayed at 3.5k. Until I touched the throttle again and the revs shoot up to 5k and the cut to 800 with the warning lights on.

I have to arrange recovery to the dealer now and will leave the bike with them, but in the meantime anyone heard of anything similar?
 

Tremor38

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

stevemac said:
I know this is an old thread, but I was wondering if there was any re-occurrence in the idle problem?

Unfortunately I'm suffering an idling issue too now. My bike sat for a couple of weeks while I waited for new tyres, it was started once and ridden less than a 100m into a garage and then sat again for another couple of weeks until I got around to fitting the tyres. After fitting the tyres I went to start the bike to take it out for a test run and the idle jumped to 3.5k. I stopped it and started it again and the same idle speed. When I tried the throttle it then jumped to 4k and only dropped slowly to 3.5k again. I let the engine get up to temp, but still the idle speed stayed high.

I spoke to my dealer who said he'd never heard of anything like it and confimred this after ringing around a bit. He asked if I could bring the bike in as they no longer collect. I wasn't to keen on this idea, but thought I'd get over early on a Sunday morning when the roads were quiet. This time when I started the bike the idle speed jumped straight to 5k and within seconds the engine warning light came on and the idle cut to 800 and wouldn't respond to the throttle. Needless to say the bike was unrideable as it just jumped around with the throttle response all over the place.

I also disconnected the battery to see if that would have any effect as I remmeber the bike not starting after the first time the battery was disconnected. I hoped there'd be some simple fault code that would clear, no such luck. At least this time the idle stayed at 3.5k. Until I touched the throttle again and the revs shoot up to 5k and the cut to 800 with the warning lights on.

I have to arrange recovery to the dealer now and will leave the bike with them, but in the meantime anyone heard of anything similar?
I had did a follow-up PM exchange with the OP a couple of months ago, and he said the problem is gone after he moved some wires. He discovered the power output wires coming from the stator were too close to either the TPS wires or the throttle servo motor wires...(I don't remember which). Now that he has separated those wires, the problem is gone.
 

Rasher

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Should have been sorted by Dealer and Yamaha.

I had some issues with a new bike a few years ago, the dealer was being an arsehole about the whole thing so I started E-Mailing Kawasaki UK directly - and copying in the major bike magazines in the UK. They got it sorted pretty damn quick after that and gave me @ £1000 of free goodies as a goodwill gesture, they even took the bike back to their own workshops rather than entrust the dealer to do the work properly.

At the time I was a bit miffed, but looking back I would happily buy another Kawasaki, just not from that dealer (The same dealer also dropped a nt into the airbox on the intake side and left it there - and did not care when I found it and went to complain about their shoddy and dangerous work)

Many dealers are bad, but I think most manufacturers do want to retain customer loyalty so if I had an issue with my Tenere and my dealer was not doing enough I would go straight to the UK importer, and even Japan if I had too, only fair to give them a go to resolve issues, and only fair to shame them on forums if they do not respond.

My understanding is Yamaha are pretty decent (or at least in the UK they have a good reputation from what I have heard)
 

~TABASCO~

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

When my Tenere was new it was doing the same thing.. I did the TB sync and CO and it fixed most of all that..
 

Fintenere

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Only a quick answer now.
Clock shows 22.30, time to go bed (wife's order). :'(

Here's the answer what I told to Tenerator12:

As I told the whole throttle body was changed but for all that the idle speed stayed once at 800 rpm last season.
In winter time I examined all the wiring again and noticed the from generator coming wires were so close to ecu and the wires which come from the throttle body sensors. The wires were so close to each other (not tied).
Maybe I had caused this by myself installing the power commander.
I assume that ecu got some wrong value(s) (tps?) and that's why adjusted the idle RPM wrong.
And MAYBE that was caused by EMI (electromagnetic irterference), just quessing and hard to prove.
Also the vibration near the engine is hard and that may cause problems too.
I changed the wire routes and also tied all the connectors and wires well.
Now nearly 11000km ridden this season without problems.

The other peculiarity which I mentioned was to stop the engine by touching the wires just above the engine near the throttle body.
I think it was achieved by static electricity (I took off my jacket just before touching).
This is also just quessing and hard to prove.
The explanation was accepted by Yamaha service too.
 

Fintenere

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

So now a little more.
Last riding season (13000 km) went quite well.
Not any real idle speed problem, only 2 short breaks when warming the engine before riding.
No more parts have been changed since 2011, not even ECU.
YAMAHA was not willing to do it and after last summer I don't think ECU is faulty.
Perhaps it gets wrong data but it does just that what it has been told to do.

Now I have done still more bounding and isolating.
My bike's warranty will end next march just before riding season. :mad:

Let's hope stevemac that Yamaha will fix your bike.
 

stevemac

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Re: Idle speed problem min 800 max 3500

Long delay in getting an answer on this as I went on holiday while the shop had my bike.

Turns out the linkage on the side of the throttle bodies was seized. I haven't picked up the bike yet due to work so haven't been able to get the mechanic to point out exactly where the problem was, but apparently Yamaha have been asking questions as they haven't seen this before. They wanted to know if I lived by the coast, was the bike used much and do I do short or long mileage trips.

I live at least a 100m from the sea. The bike has done approx 14000m this year. Riding is work/commuting only and shared with an FJR, with most of my journeys 100m plus.

The bike was left sitting for 3-4 weeks before this occurred which can't have helped. I was moving house and waiting for a new set of dunlop rs2's and it hadn't been washed, but even if it had I don't tend to be that detailed when washing it. As I use my bikes all year round this isn't a good sign, if it's just a case of more careful washing I can cope with that, but I had enough problems with the FJR that I was told needed a new wiring harness at 3yr old and all the earthing issues. If the S10 is going to need constant attention with panels off, deep cleans, etc. then perhaps I need to look elsewhere. Can't imagine many modern bikes are going to be that different with all year round riding requiring high maintenance.
 
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