Manual CCT and wow what a difference.

[~TABASCO~]

Installed a manual CCT into a customers bike the otherday. The install was easy and set up was easy. I fired it up, and was surprised that there was NO chain noise at all. I thought the new 14 was better than the original but not compared to the manual. I let the motor worm up to about 165 and revved it a bit to make sure I didn't hear the 'whine'. Nope, smooooth.
I thought my 2014 CCT was so much better than the 12 unit, well the manual is SO much better than the 14 unit.

Ok, question... The customer sent me the ebay unit. And for all practical reasons it's a "quality" unit. But I'm a bit strange and noticed a few things that I would like to change to that unit. Until I came across the Graves Motorsport R1 manual CCT. I know the mechanical aspects of this unit should work. But I'm a bit concerned on there oil by pass that is machined into the back side of the graves unit. The gasket should block off the oil passage that needs to be blocked but with the little oil passage machined into the face it looks like it will let the oil pass by. Can another engineer type person confirm my thoughts. The ebay unit for the Tenere says its for the R1. I guess that's standard. Just trying to confirm the Graves unit will work on the tenere.
After fireing up the customers bike I'm strongly considering the manual now. I guess I'm slow to the party. Lol


I think I came across what I might be looking for on the R1 forums. Here is a bit more info:



Cost VS Quality

Compare our product to the competitions product and the cost

Graves Product
Adjustment shaft is made of aerospace quality steel machined to a 1.0 threads per millimeter allowing the tuner to adjust the tension on the chain to an exact specification = less friction and consistent cam timing = more power.

The Competitors shaft
Shaft is made of mild steel all thread material with SAE course thread

Graves Cam Chain Body
Designed to support the shaft as close to the cam chain running block as possible for maximum shaft support and minimum shaft flex. The body is machined to allow the exact amount of oil exiting the body to minimize over oiling of the valve train area at high rpm. All of this = more power, accurate cam timing and less friction.

The Competitors Body
Designed to hold the shaft and plugs the oil relief hole

Graves’s lock nut
Made of 7075 T651 and hard anodized for a reliable fit, strong threads, light weight and great looks

The competitor’s nut
Course thread steel nut

You can compare the price but you cannot compare the quality. Take both of these to your engine builder and ask them which one they would install in your motor when their reputation is on the line!

 

[snakebitten]

Are you saying my engine builder is going to be leery of the "generic" mcct? 8)

I know you Jaxon. (I wonder how you sleep at night)
So you held one in your hand. You touched it. You turned it over and viewed it from every angle. During the business day, each time the phone rang, you ran to your office, and while handling the phone customer, you once again picked up the chunk of aluminum on your desk and mulled over it.

Then, finally, it came time to actually install the mcct. In your methodical way, you covered every base and did just that. Still unconvinced of its merit.

But then you hit the button and started the Tenere. I'm betting it was on your lift and you were very close to the motor. And it IS something you have done oh so many times to oh so many Teneres. Maybe more than anybody I know. Maybe more than anybody period.

And you were impressed.


Here is my non-engineering take on it:

The mcct has a distinct advantage over the hydraulic cct. It can manually be adjusted to the exact "sweetspot". While the hydraulic cct can be within a range of the sweetspot. Likely varying short of and beyond that exact spot based on all kinds of things. Oil pressure, viscosity, chain load, etc

Anyways, my point is, in the case of a manual cam chain tensioner, the beauty is in its simplicity! It's just a static BOLT taking the place of a rod that is trying to guess at being a bolt. And it's only requirement is to be strong enough to not move or break.

Those generic mcct's are not borderline junk, are they? ???
Aren't they machined from Billet just like the one with the "name" on it? It's a big fancy BOLT. Lol

I mean, I have seen them in motorcycles all my life. In fact, my 1998 VTR got one. My 2003 KLX got one. Both bikes were well known (on the forums) to have cam chain issues related to the automatic cct. And yes, my 2012 Tenere has one now too. (thanks Greg the pole) Just made sense to me after the recent rash of cct issues. (not much has changed over the years, it appears)

Looks like I'm picking on you. Oh, and I am. Because you are one crazy dude! It's in your DNA.
I know what you need to do. You need to MAKE ONE. Then you'll trust it.

I'll buy one for my Tenere if you do. I'll even swap it for the mcct it has in it now.
And to be honest........I bet yours will be better and you'll be able to tell me why.

But in the end, it won't hold the cam chain guide in that sweet spot any differently. It'll just be a fancier BOLT. LoL
Prettier too, I imagine. Can I get it in Blue?

 

[snakebitten]

APE is well known for their Manual Cam Chain Tensioner.

Generic Ebay unit

Is this the Graves unit? Think so. I know why you like it. Wonder if the Tenere has the internal clearance?

I'll take any of them, and BET my cam chain (and valves & pistons) on it, over the one that Honda-Kawasaki-Yamaha-Suzuki provides.
But all 3 of them are just a BOLT.

 

[~TABASCO~]

Hey Snake,

Thanks for the post. The bottom one is for the R6. The R1 unit is shorter. There ALL better than stock

 

[snakebitten]

Told you that you can't sleep. >

 

[stutrump]

Blimey...you guys impress me. Wish I knew so much about engines. Mine is still standard but if I ever hear any cam chain rattle then I now know what to do...well....what to buy...I wouldn't have a clue how to fit it or adjust it!!

 

[big dave]

Tabasco, when you fitted the manual cct did you have to lock the crank in any particular position (tdc?) to stop the cam chain jumping the sprockets? I know that the yamaha TDM900 will jump teeth on the sprockets if the cams are under tension ie valves open

 

[Chuck B]

Should always be at TDC...

 

[Checkswrecks]

I installed the 2014 Yamaha CCT at 40,000 miles because the rattle was getting pretty bad. At 43k+ it will do a slight rattle in slow rolls of the throttle near idle. I have also been looking at how long and thin the cam chain is that I am about to put in the mail to an overseas person, and can see why it should be considered a normal wear item.


While my bike's rattle is not yet something I am worried about, my mind is made up that in the not too distant future I am going to BOTH replace the cam chain and install a manual CCT while doing an early 52,000 mile valve check.

 

[offcamber]

I know this may have already been covered in another thread, with a manual tensioner how do you determine the proper amount of tension if its just a bolt you screw in??

 

[Koinz]

I know this may have already been covered in another thread, with a manual tensioner how do you determine the proper amount of tension if its just a bolt you screw in??

From what I've seen on Youtube, it's a matter of gently snugging up the tensioner against the guide and backing it out 1/4-1/2 turn. Not too tight and not too loose is the trick. 8)

 

[greg the pole]

i've used two of the generic ebay cct's. My first one was installed as the motor stood, not at tdc, in retrospect, I should have probably done it at tdc.
I tightened it till I had pressure on the bolt, spun the motor by hand a few times, to check for loose spots, then locked in the nut.
Rode it around for a few days, then I decided to second guess myself ::010::
I backed off the cct and that's when I heard the dreaded intake cam jump. Well, off comes the cover, sure as shit...two teeth off. Re-set the cams to spec, and re-set the cct. No issues since (7000km).

The second cct went into a buddy's tenere. His valves were due, so I did the cct with the cover open. Used the same technique I did on mine. Once I found the right tightness, spun the motor a few times. There should be 1/4" slack on the chain between the intake and exhaust cams.

I think it's also advisable if you want to change your cct to tie wrap the chain on the bottom guides, as far up as you can, to prevent the chain from jumping. The clutch cover needs to be off obvs.

I've heard it many many times that oem cct's were always a weak point with many manufacturers. Honda especially in the 90's and 2000's. You should be able to check it every second oil change. And yes, with the mcct and a clutch basket, the bike is quiet and smooth..ecu flash certainly helped.. ::015::

 

[greg the pole]

I have a suspicion that the reason the manual is so exceptionally quiet is that the chain is being run tighter than it should be. Could be wrong.

nope...if it's tight it will give you a whizzing sound, as the chain is pushing too hard against the guides

 

[~TABASCO~]

Tabasco, when you fitted the manual cct did you have to lock the crank in any particular position (tdc?) to stop the cam chain jumping the sprockets? I know that the yamaha TDM900 will jump teeth on the sprockets if the cams are under tension ie valves open

Ive changed many customer CCT to the 2014 unit.. So swapping was no issue. There are several methods of keeping an eye on the chain but I run the mark on K and keep tension on the chain as I change each unit... No issue...

 

[~TABASCO~]

nope...if it's tight it will give you a whizzing sound, as the chain is pushing too hard against the guides

X2

 

[~TABASCO~]

Looks like the stock unit monitors and uses the oil pressure to keep tension on the CCT and then bleeds the oil off onto the chain... Most of the manual CCT look to block off that passage then not feeding the chain some lube except the Graves, (that I can see)... What are the thoughts of others on the importance of this ? You can see in these pictures the small passage the Graves offers to keep some oil spilling over onto the chain...

 

[OldRider]

The chain is running in a tub of oil. I don't think a little squirting out of the tensioner makes any difference.

If you're a Parts Unlimited dealer they carry the PSR brand tensioner # 0925-0782 that will work.

 

[~TABASCO~]

This is a dry sump motor.. I don't think the chain is sitting in oil like a standard engine (non dry sump)....

 

[OldRider]

IMO, it doesn't make any difference, there is a lot of oil flying around in there.

 

[snakebitten]

nope...if it's tight it will give you a whizzing sound, as the chain is pushing too hard against the guides

Exactly.
That's my point about there being a "sweetspot".
ALL automatic cam chain tensioners are designed to "automatically", rather than "manually", find that sweetspot. Right?

And they are NOTORIOUSLY not at that sweet spot at certain moments. Especially while short on oil and\or oil pressure.
But it makes total sense also, by their very nature, that they are almost always, ONLY within a certain boundary, of the sweetspot.

And it is true, if you listen closely, that there are certain sounds for both too loose and too tight. The sweet spot is simply "quiet".

Which admittedly, the automatic CCT's, can and do achieve, under very certain circumstances. Just not enough for piece of mind anymore for me, with the Super Tenere and the DRZ.
Just like with my Big Brother, I learn from HIS experiences. He would get a whoopin, and I would then adjust my behavior accordingly. It defined the boundaries. No different here, in my opinion.