Karson's Barnett clutch swap, DMM HID lights, bar risers

[scott123007]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

I'm still amazed that anyone has gotten true clutch slip from the Tenere. I can't fathom that the 150 could get enough traction on any surface to cause the clutch to slip. I've essentially tried. I've held my throttle WOT and hit the quick shifter up through 4th gear. Never felt a lick of slip. The motor never revved up faster than the bike accelerated.

ac

The tire size has nothing to do with it. Lots of clutch slipping by the operator, from technical trail riding, is the culprit.

 

[Karson]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

The Barnett plate with those springs make it far superior in regards to engagement and feel. I was worried I'd have to go back in before really riding much and fiddle with different springs to get it right, along with getting lever pull within reason.

However, like I said the black rate springs were spot on. More bite with only a little more level pull required. Keep in mind, I didn't get this due to any slippage concerns and don't forsee street riding as a common application, unless your clutch was on its way out to start and for some reason wanted this to address it.

But, I don't think buying this setup for that kind of intention/resolve would be common - I got it for those situations off-road where you try to tell yourself to be easy on the clutch, but you put yourself in a situation where there's no choice. I was also a little swayed by JohnnyCinco's situation

http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=8875.msg147878#msg147878

It's one of those mods that will really be noticeable and be different at first, but quickly fade into the back of your mind after a weekend of riding.

 

[Dallara]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Dallara,

Check again. The info sheet Karson threw up shows "force at distance". That isn't the rate, that is the actual force at a given preload. Now...I'm not sure if that preload number is the installed preload, but if it wasn't that would be pretty dumb.

I have no idea how Barnett determined the force on the stock setup, but I assume it would be right?

I'm still amazed that anyone has gotten true clutch slip from the Tenere. I can't fathom that the 150 could get enough traction on any surface to cause the clutch to slip. I've essentially tried. I've held my throttle WOT and hit the quick shifter up through 4th gear. Never felt a lick of slip. The motor never revved up faster than the bike accelerated.

I am curious how the clutch feels with the new setup. Yamaha uses similar setups on ALL of their dirt bikes. It seems the diaphragm is more of a street setup for whatever reason.

ac

You mean this one?

I see where it shows "@ 22.3mm", etc., but I without seeing the springs there's no way to know if that's free length or installed. It gets especially confusing when there has been mention of certain springs being shorter than others, etc., and those giving improper rates. I agree it might be rather dubious for them to compare rates without checking both at fully installed and torqued preload, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a supplier showing confusing data.

Again, I'm not questioning Barnett's expertise, or even numbers. Just was pointing out that it's hard to do "apples-to-apples" comparisons between the diaphragm spring and the coils without having everything in front of you to measure, etc.

And like you, I've only heard of one owner anywhere having any clutch issues, and to the best of my recollection it was never posted anywhere what the exact cause was determined to be. I honestly don't see how anyone could fault the Tenere's stock clutch. I've got more miles than most on mine (right at 34,000 miles as of today), and I've never babied mine in the slightest. It's been off-road a fair amount, and been worked hard on-road, too. I imagine I'm at the higher end of the S-10 owner weight scale, and mine always has the side cases and a taller-than-stock windscreen. I've run mine very heavily loaded on trips, so I think my clutch has been worked at least an average amount, if not more. So far it's been flawless. No slipping under any conditions, still has wonderful feel and function, and from the level of the clutch fluid master cylinder the plates have very, very little wear.

And something not mentioned... The TCS actually makes life a lot easier on the clutch - that is as long as it's being used in either of its modes. I guess those that turn TCS completely off and do tons of manual clutch slipping off-road, etc. might could get the clutch smoking hot and slipping, but still there have been no reports of anything like that around here or on ADVrider that I recall.

Understand, I'm not knocking folks that simply like to try all sorts of aftermarket farkles on their bikes. That's great, and it drives the industry to offer all sorts of products. I love to see and read reports about these kinds of things, too. And who knows, at 100,000 miles or so the stock diaphragm spring might get lazy with age and heat and I'll want to switch to a Barnett coil spring pressure plate kit, and there will be this wonderful reference material here about it. Kudos to Karson for being one of the first to try it, and I will watch to see how he likes it, especially if he experiments with different spring rates. ::008::

Dallara



~

 

[Karson]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

You raise a good point about measuring the forces in a way that would be accurate for both designs. I'll try and keep a little mental note as time progresses and see how it feels 1,5,10k+ miles from now and if it's still something I consider to be worthwhile.

At this point, we've almost got to take the Barnett values at face value, assume/trust they were accurate across different designs, and go off of level feel and clutch bite. ::008::

 

[scott123007]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

I see where it shows "@ 22.3mm", etc., but I without seeing the springs there's no way to know if that's free length or installed.
Dallara



~

I don't think I've ever seen clutch springs on any motorcycle whose free length are under an inch...just sayin'. (That's my nice way of saying, you should know better, Dallara.)

 

[Dallara]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

I don't think I've ever seen clutch springs on any motorcycle whose free length are under an inch...just sayin'. (That's my nice way of saying, you should know better, Dallara.)

Good point, Scott...

But given this is a coil spring pressure plate replacing a diaphragm spring pressure plate I've got no idea what length springs would be, and since I've never seen one of the kits I'm in the dark. ::025::

Couldn't see in Karson's pics how long they might be, either.

Dallara


~

 

[avc8130]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

The tire size has nothing to do with it. Lots of clutch slipping by the operator, from technical trail riding, is the culprit.

I don't see how stiffer springs will help prevent a clutch from slipping when the OPERATOR is doing the slipping.

Maybe I'm missing something. I spent my entire youth slipping clutches on dirt bikes through the rocks and trees of the hills in North NJ. If I didn't want the clutch to slip, I just let the lever out to re-engage it.

The tire actually has A LOT to do with clutch slip. If the lever is "out", the clutch can only "slip" if the tire has TRACTION. Otherwise the tire just spins and there is no slipping.

Again, we haven't even started to approach the TCS conversation about that.

I do think this setup could provide a nicer clutch "feel" when being particularly clutchy during tricky off road situations, but that is purely subjective.

ac

 

[scott123007]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Jesus AC, read between the lines. The operator is slipping the clutch excessively and causing it to fail. Stronger springs can extend that failure by having more clamping force.

I meant in this case tire size has nothing to do with it, but regardless, any size street tire on most any bike is not going to spin up in the dry in higher gears, where clutch slipping is more prevalent.

 

[avc8130]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Jesus AC, read between the lines. The operator is slipping the clutch excessively and causing it to fail. Stronger springs can extend that failure by having more clamping force.

I meant in this case tire size has nothing to do with it, but regardless, any size street tire on most any bike is not going to spin up in the dry in higher gears, where clutch slipping is more prevalent.

No need to bring the church into this.

I'm still confused how stronger springs will prevent an operator from slipping their clutch into oblivion with the lever. The operator is slipping the clutch for a desired outcome. You let the clutch out a tad when you want to move forward and in a tad when you need to reign it in. Changing the clamping force will just change where in the lever travel you are as the desired outcome from the bike is identical.

Please explain it to my feeble mind.

ac

 

[scott123007]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Clutches that are not designed to be slipped excessively go bad from excessive slipping by their operator. Unlike the majority of off road race bikes, our Big Blue Pigs' clutch cannot take the same abuse. The stronger springs do nothing to control the operators ability to slip it, it just gives a failing clutch a little more life because of the extra clamping pressure when not being slipped by the operator. Whew...

 

[avc8130]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Clutches that are not designed to be slipped excessively go bad from excessive slipping by their operator. Unlike the majority of off road race bikes, our Big Blue Pigs' clutch cannot take the same abuse. The stronger springs do nothing to control the operators ability to slip it, it just gives a failing clutch a little more life because of the extra clamping pressure when not being slipped by the operator. Whew...

Oh! So it might let a rider with a failing clutch get home...although they wouldn't know it until it failed catastrophically anyways.

I could understand your argument, if the intent was installing the softest springs and slipping the heck out of the clutch off road...THEN installing stiffer springs to limp the failing clutch home on.

Starting out with stiffer springs MIGHT prevent the failing clutch from failing as quickly, but you would never know anyways so the end result is the same.

ac

 

[scott123007]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Oh! So it might let a rider with a failing clutch get home...although they wouldn't know it until it failed catastrophically anyways.

I could understand your argument, if the intent was installing the softest springs and slipping the heck out of the clutch off road...THEN installing stiffer springs to limp the failing clutch home on.

Starting out with stiffer springs MIGHT prevent the failing clutch from failing as quickly, but you would never know anyways so the end result is the same.

ac

You're hopeless...LOL

Let Dallara explain clutches to you, I'm winded.

 

[avc8130]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

You're hopeless...LOL

Let Dallara explain clutches to you, I'm winded.

Apparently.

Although, I've pulled out my machine design textbook for a 10 year refresh and I'm starting to think maybe YOU need Dallara's explanation. LOL

ac

 

[scott123007]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Apparently.

Although, I've pulled out my machine design textbook for a 10 year refresh and I'm starting to think maybe YOU need Dallara's explanation. LOL

ac

Part of the problem is you weren't even born when clutch slipping on motorcycles was a REAL problem. Maybe he can tell you about using spark plug washers to increase preload on springs to get more clutch life.

 

[twinrider]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Next will be swapping out the DDM tuning HIDs for Morimoto's. One of my DDM ballasts is on it's way south, and I like how the igniter & ballast on the Morimoto's are all one self contained box. Their motorcycle specific relay harness is insanely long, but I'll shorten it. Source: theretrofitsource.com

A hint on the Morimotos. You don't need to use their relay harness. The head mechanic at my local YSP shop chose to do the install without it, and I later learned that ADVFireFighter did the same.

 

[avc8130]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Part of the problem is you weren't even born when clutch slipping on motorcycles was a REAL problem. Maybe he can tell you about using spark plug washers to increase preload on springs to get more clutch life.

You are correct, I have never had a factory healthy clutch slip on anything I have owned (motorcycles, dirt bikes, atvs, trucks, cars).

That isn't to say that back when I was a teenager we didn't commonly try the washer trick on the dirt bikes. We would ride on the streets and use dirt bikes as transportation before we had licenses. Of course, every girl we saw lead to a wheelie. This put quite the strain on a 125cc 2 stroke MX bike holding a fat teenager. The washers never made the clutch last too much longer.

ac

 

[avc8130]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

A hint on the Morimotos. You don't need to use their relay harness. The head mechanic at my local YSP shop chose to do the install without it, and I later learned that ADVFireFighter did the same.

I've been running my DDM without a relay harness. This is the 3rd bike this particular set was installed on without a harness.

ac

 

[twinrider]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

Yeah, the mechanic said something about because of the electronic shutter setup and the fact that the OEM harness already had a relay it was better to go that route.

 

[snakebitten]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

I'm a clutch simpleton. I understand the concept, and that has been sufficient for my whole life.
I have changed my own clutch in my very first car. (67 Mercury Cougar. 289 with a 3-speed)
I've also changed clutch plates a few times in the dark ages of motorcycles. 70's and 80's.

I had to read up a bit on coil vs diaphragm.

Coil Spring design allows for simple modification of applied pressure.
Mixing\replacing springs of different tensions.
Also read that centrifugal force applies clutch more tightly

Diaphragm clutch advantages are less effort to disengage, AND increased pressure as clutch plates wear.

Having said all that, my favorite thing about this Barnett kit is it's cool looking.
Too bad you can't just sit and stair at it after it's installed.

 

[avc8130]

Re: Time for some fun...pics inside

I'm a clutch simpleton. I understand the concept, and that has been sufficient for my whole life.
I have changed my own clutch in my very first car. (67 Mercury Cougar. 289 with a 3-speed)
I've also changed clutch plates a few times in the dark ages of motorcycles. 70's and 80's.

I had to read up a bit on coil vs diaphragm.

Coil Spring design allows for simple modification of applied pressure.
Mixing\replacing springs of different tensions.
Also read that centrifugal force applies clutch more tightly

Diaphragm clutch advantages are less effort to disengage, AND increased pressure as clutch plates wear.

Having said all that, my favorite thing about this Barnett kit is it's cool looking.
Too bad you can't just sit and stair at it after it's installed.

Bam! New product idea!

Clear clutch cover!

ac