Hard starting and other problems

[markjenn]

markjenn.
That covers hard start that has been around many times on this forum I mainly am talking Idle issues.
This is a new Gremlin would you not agree? :
Sorry to say but the dumb question is the one that isn't asked, no harm in finding out the percentage.
Another poll isn't going to spoil my day we have plenty of room for another, I want to know.

No problem.... but I didn't really understand what you were after, so if you really want to gather new data , I'd suggest another thead/poll with well-formed questions.

- Mark

 

[Puff998]

I have no idle ,hard start ,high idle and engine quits at highway speeds ...which one you wanna poll ???

 

[Checkswrecks]

The one thing Yamaha could learn from BMW is how to look after a customer when a problem occurs.
. . .

I totally disagree.


Yamaha tends to go privately to the back room to look at issues while we complain, then they come out with a service bulletin or part. It is frustrating while they work out a solution because they do like any company and just seem to take note of your complaint as if it's new. We know they are working on the hard start and yet people recently have heard that Yamaha will look into their complaint, as if it is new. Definitely a frustration for us and my own guess is that Yamaha is not satisfied they know what is the root cause.


Meanwhile and off the top of my head, quick examples of issuing prior fixes that they quietly developed would be the headlight harness on this bike and FJR grounding path spider connectors. BMW is like the KLR650, in living with problem issues for eons until the model is revamped.

There are a couple of threads from when the Gen2 bikes were released in which we all were amazed at how many small things we asked for that Yamaha incorporated. With a new design, Yamaha has more than once given it to a limited market for the first year to beta test. When I was in the FJR forum, we got two changes from Yamaha and recalls were done. I do think BMW has changed and is getting better, but can't imagine them going this far.


When there has been a service issue, Yamaha has frequently paid for them as warranty issues, even if long out of the warranty period. Fortunately, the Tenere is a reliable rock, so using other models as examples, I'm one of many FJR owners who had their valves replaced on Yamaha's dime even though I was not the original buyer and the bike had a LOT of miles by that time. They've paid for top box racks, key switch assemblies, etc.


Two of our member in this forum have had Yamaha not give up on problems to the point of replacing entire wire harnesses. I know of owners going to two local BMW dealers who relate that if an issue is not addressed by the 2nd or third visit, they feel like they are regarded as "problem customers." (which these guys are not!)


Go talk to BMW about a known issue when you are 6 months out of warranty and see what happens. IF they acknowledge it, sorry but you are out of warranty. The company attitude reminds me of my German ex when she'd say
"Ve do things this vay because it is ze vay things are done."

 

[Juan]

Checkswrecks, I like your German

 

[mileageman]

I had a few different problems as stated in my first post. But to answer your questions - I experienced random episodes of low idle varying down to 800 rpm and also to the point of dying. There were also times when the bike died during an upshift to 2nd or 3rd gear. Also random were episodes of high rpm. Typically the rpm would stick at about 2500 to 3000. Sometimes I was able to turn off the ignition and clear the problem, others not. I also had experiences of the high rpm on startup with the same results; able to clear it by turning the ignition off and sometimes not. Since I did the wire isolation I have had no problems with idle speed or start ups. My idle is quite steady at about 1100 rpm. During start up I get a brief period of fast idle if it is cold outside and no fast idle when warm, just like it should be. You sound like the perfect candidate for separating the wires. Heck I would do it for you if I was a bit closer to Santa Fe. I am in Durango, Colorado. Don't worry about messing up the factory setup. You can put it back like Yamaha had it if you want to. Yamaha just had some electrical tape over a split flat rubberized cover bundling the whole group of wires.

 

[WJBertrand]

There is a certain arrogance that seems a German trait. My grandmother was German so I know first hand. On a model introduction assignment from MCN (US mag) for the R1100RS some years back, I asked one of the German engineers why BMW persisted placing the starter button up on top of the switch cluster instead of down lower where it was ergonomically accessible with one's thumb. His response was "because zis is zee correct location".

 

[markjenn]

I think folks tend to take their anecdotal experiences with customer service (many second or third hard) and make them significant way beyond their merit, depending on what brands they like. I've owned six Yamahas and four BMWs and I've had generally had good experiences in fixing problems with both, which includes warranty repairs and out-of-warranty goodwill repairs. But I've also had some very bad experiences, Yamaha included. These are big corporations with some budget to go "above and beyond", but it's never unlimited, and things can be highly variable. The dealer makes more difference than the marque.

On the specifics of the hard-start issue, we're at about four years since the problem became known and there is still no official information that Yamaha has even acknowledged the problem, let alone is working on a fix/recall. Spinning this to be an example of their being responsive is quite a stretch.

- Mark

 

[Ramseybella]

I have no idle ,hard start ,high idle and engine quits at highway speeds ...which one you wanna poll ???

I guess I can start by starting a new head count thread.
I am more curious on the dead after pulling the clutch in to High idle at restart issue.
Never had it die while riding down the highway, had it hard start once but that was my fault jumped the clutch.

 

[Checkswrecks]

On the specifics of the hard-start issue, we're at about four years since the problem became known and there is still no official information that Yamaha has even acknowledged the problem, let alone is working on a fix/recall. Spinning this to be an example of their being responsive is quite a stretch.

- Mark

Responsive?


I said it was a frustration at this point.

 

[markjenn]

Responsive?


I said it was a frustration at this point.

True, but your post was generally in the vein of Yamaha being more responsive than most other mfgs to problems and more responsive than BMW in general. I simply disagree. I'd say that Yamaha is more/less the industry norm with this hard-start issue being one that is on the unresponsive side of the ledger.

- Mark

 

[mike25]

It continues to amaze me how much motorcycle riders will put up with. Some bikes run like shit from the
factory, so we spend money on power commanders, reflashes, dyno time, all on a STOCK bike, to try
to get them to run properly.
If the car companies tried to sell something that ran like 'some' of our bikes do there would be a recall
on them. I think it's time for us to demand the factories fix these issues.

 

[Dogdaze]

It continues to amaze me how much motorcycle riders will put up with. Some bikes run like shit from the
factory, so we spend money on power commanders, reflashes, dyno time, all on a STOCK bike, to try
to get them to run properly.
If the car companies tried to sell something that ran like 'some' of our bikes do there would be a recall
on them. I think it's time for us to demand the factories fix these issues.

Not wishing to cross threads, but who will stand up for the minority, us? VW just got hammered, but there has to be a payoff or not enough, hence the investigation.........

 

[Rasher]

Bikes tend to run like sh!t low down / part throttle to comply with the emissions laws, or at least to pass the irrelevant and stupid tests....

...it is now looking like the car manufacturers have taken a different route and just cheated the system - which it has to be said was begging to be cheated.

Typical Government type tests, just like with bike noise limits, every couple of years they decide to ratchet them down, never taking into account the real world (for example most complaints of noisy bikes are due to illegal exhausts)

What is obviously required is a series of more comprehensive tests including motorway cruising and even the effects of being driven hard - maybe checking emissions in the process of accelerating at full power (say from 30 - 60mph). This then needs to be backed up by some world driving to confirm in normal use the vehicle gives a similar figure (i.e. a drive over a similar distance not following the program)

I bet when VW have to modify their high performance "eco friendly" diesels to really comply with the tests the owners will not be quite so happy....

...and I bet they (car manufacturers) have all been at it for years.

 

[The Ferret]

Going back to the first post and the photographs, I can report a coincidence with my bike at the 24000 mile service a couple of years ago. The week before the service the bike started surging whilst driven and the idle became eratic. The service changed filter and plugs and the bike came back running better than it ever had done before. I put it down to the new plugs and surmised the old plugs had started to break down. But those photos suggest that in fitting the plugs that particular bunch of wires would be disturbed in some way with the tooling, mechanics making purchase etc. Had no running problems since except for a hard start issue this week! Its taken me two days to get it started using a mix of the Yam work around, WOT,disconnecting battery and a full throttle with power on but no starter. She finally started after the latter. The hard start was initially caused by catching the kill button whilst starting from cold. Certainly builds your character !

 

[mileageman]

Ferret your hard start issue could be directly related to the mechanics work. I would bet that he certainly moved that wiring harness some to perform the spark plug change. I and others have seen direct results from moving the wiring harness in front of the throttle bodies. If your problems persist, give my method to fix a try. You have nothing to loose and can return it to factory configuration easily if you believe it did not help. I have had zero problems since I did mine, and I had them all, not just hard starting. Good luck.

 

[The Ferret]

I'll certainly have a go with it, although the mechanic had his fingers on it many thousands of miles ago. Needs another service now. I've always taken the precaution of getting the bike upto 60 celsius before switching off. It was just this occasion with the kill switch that gave me the headache!

 

[mileageman]

Ferret, if you need any further information or pictures just PM me. I can work up perhaps a more detailed explanation of what I did. So far I have had no problems for 3100 miles. Best of luck.

 

[Bigbore4]

@mileageman
Is the foil wrap an attempt at shielding or strictly for visibility? I don't have any of the issues bad, but they are present. I plan to give this a shot this winter while the bike is laid up. I like your diagnostic process and your thinking, this makes more sense than anything else so far.

Anyone else actually done this yet with results to post?

 

[mileageman]

Bigbore I am glad you are going to give it a try. I put the foil on for two reasons. One was to make it much easier to see in the photos. The other was an additional shield. The foil probably does not help that much without being grounded. I figured it did not hurt to leave it on and if I did not cure the EMI I could always go back and add a ground to the frame. I did not have to as it works fine as is.

I think The Ferret and Puff998 are going to try my fix. No results yet, except me. I am closing in on 4000 miles without any problems. I hope it works for you. Good luck.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Again, glad that for whatever source reason, and glad your result has worked for you.


Do be aware that EMI is a phenomenon of AC or pulsed DC, and for AC to affect a 12VDC system takes a good deal of power AND be at least partially rectified. While the bikes do have a few pulsed DC sources, they are very low power such as the wheel speed sensors. The biggest source of EMI is largely contained within the alternator.


If you really think you have an EMI issue, use an AM radio and you'll know pretty quick. EMI bad enough to create problems ought to be picked up at least a couple of feet from the bike, so you don't even need to lift the tank.

http://www.electricsense.com/2901/how-to-detect-rf-radiation-using-your-am-radio/


While it ought to be kinda fun and interesting, I doubt it'll even pick up the little bit of power from the rear wheel speed sensor if you run the rear wheel while on the center stand and hold the antenna right next to the wire. My strong guess is that you don't have enough noise anywhere in the wire harness to justify grounding your aluminum foil, but I'm open to you proving me wrong.


That said, your aluminum foil has one other benefit, in that it protects the wiring from heat. This should not be an issue with the type of wire being used, and if it were then all of our bikes would have major issues and it would be pretty easy to find the bad wiring. But it's not a bad thing and shouldn't hurt.