Hard start issue.

[sergeyd]

I'm having an issue when starting the engine. Half of the time it woun't start. Sometimes I have to perform hard start procedure from this topic https://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?threads/hard-start.2149/page-33

Recently I changed

- sparkplugs
- filter
- cleaned throttle body

Nothing simse to help.

Love the bike and want to start reliably. Does anyone had the same issue and how you deal with that?

It's a specially hard to start the engine when I shut it down a min after I cald started (for example I forgot to lock top case and I need the key). Maybe it will give a clue.

Thank you so much in advance. I hope someone know the answer.

 

[Nikolajsen]

What you describe last sounds "normal"
It is a known issue, that there is problem with starting again after that, try to give WOT next time.
Next is to be sure that the battery is in mint condition, and maybe a ytz14S instead of the standard ytz12S, gives a little more power when starting. (or a lithium)

I have never seen a real conclusion on what happens (as I remember), but my guess is that it gets flooded, in both situations.

Åh, and never let go of the starter butten, until it is really startet.

 

[Boris]

The cold start issue has been discussed often and in great detail on here. As far as I can tell, there isn’t an actual answer, just lots of opinions as to why it occurs. One things for certain, it can be a real PITA when it happens.

I have a Gen1 bike that I’ve had for about 4.5 years and 33k miles and have had the cold start issue 3-4 times. A couple of these were after not being used for a couple of weeks minimum, so battery probably not at its best. The others, no idea why.

I follow these rules to avoid the cold start issue, which I haven’t had now for about 18 months. These may help, or not help, but it seems to work for me and I’ll continue to follow my process.

Avoid short starts. If running, let it run until close to normal running temp is reached before turning off. When turning the engine off, only do so by using the kill switch first. If the bike is laid up for more than about 10 days, stick it on a trickle charge for a couple of hours. No throttle for a normal start attempt.

Others may not agree, but it works for me.

 

[gunslinger_006]

I'm having an issue when starting the engine. Half of the time it woun't start.

It's a specially hard to start the engine when I shut it down a min after I cald started (for example I forgot to lock top case and I need the key). Maybe it will give a clue.

Thank you so much in advance. I hope someone know the answer.

Stop doing that.

This is your fault, not the bike.

Rules:

1). Always always always stop the bike with the KILL SWITCH never the key.

2). If you kill the bike before it warms up to at least showing a temp for the coolant instead of “lo”, this can happen. Double your odds if you use the key.

Just stop doing those things above and the issue is gone.


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[Nikolajsen]

Wauv..gunslinger is a hard guy...he set up rules

(other bikes can start ANYTIME, even when stopped again cold)

 

[EricV]

@sergeyd - Sorry to read that you are having some issues. A little more info may help narrow down if this is just the typical hard start or more than that. It would appear from your original post that this didn't used to happen, but is becoming a regular occurrence?

What year is your bike?
How many miles on it now?
When was the last time you had the valves checked/adjusted?
Have you had any service work done, or done any yourself lately? (Or what was the last thing done?)

Gen I, (2010-2013), Super Tens don't like being shut down before full warm up and that can trigger a hard start. Especially when the bikes are very cold, like parked outside overnight and it's sub 50F. My '12 did not like cold mornings after being parked outside all night if I stalled it, it would give me a hard start. Once I learned to immediately give it 1/2 to 3/4 throttle on the next starting attempt after a fail to start, AND to cycle the key switch off first, I nearly always got it to fire back up ok w/o long cranking.

One of the symptoms of valves being out of adjustment is hard starting. If this has been slowly getting worse and you haven't had the valves adjusted, that might be something to get looked at. Carbon build up on the valves has also been known to cause this, but it usually has to be pretty bad. Yamaha sells a product to mix with the gas that helps this called "Ring Free Plus". It's more common in the outboard motor world, but I've used it and it works. There are other products that help too.

I never had a hard start on my Gen II Super Ten. If you have a Gen II bike, then valve adjustment, Throttle body sync and verifying the cam chain tensioner is doing it's thing are the first things I'd suggest you look more closely at.

 

[gunslinger_006]

Wauv..gunslinger is a hard guy...he set up rules

(other bikes can start ANYTIME, even when stopped again cold)

I dont make the rules, some intern at yamaha programming the cold start enrichments routine did that.

Mine will hard start too if its killed with the key during cold enrichment. The extra fuel washes the oil off the cylinder walls and you lose compression. Takes a bunch of starts to build it back.


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[WJBertrand]

As mentioned above, a crisp battery able to provide vigorous cranking is a key factor. The OEM YTZ12S is barely adequate when new and becomes pretty marginal after a couple years.


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[sergeyd]

I

The cold start issue has been discussed often and in great detail on here. As far as I can tell, there isn’t an actual answer, just lots of opinions as to why it occurs. One things for certain, it can be a real PITA when it happens.

I have a Gen1 bike that I’ve had for about 4.5 years and 33k miles and have had the cold start issue 3-4 times. A couple of these were after not being used for a couple of weeks minimum, so battery probably not at its best. The others, no idea why.

I follow these rules to avoid the cold start issue, which I haven’t had now for about 18 months. These may help, or not help, but it seems to work for me and I’ll continue to follow my process.

Avoid short starts. If running, let it run until close to normal running temp is reached before turning off. When turning the engine off, only do so by using the kill switch first. If the bike is laid up for more than about 10 days, stick it on a trickle charge for a couple of hours. No throttle for a normal start attempt.

Others may not agree, but it works for me.

I read about this rools before and it actually worked for me but every time I'm going against them I have issues. And I though instead of riding with this gremlin around and stuck somewhere in the middle of nowhere I can fix it now.

 

[sergeyd]

Stop doing that.

This is your fault, not the bike.

Rules:

1). Always always always stop the bike with the KILL SWITCH never the key.

2). If you kill the bike before it warms up to at least showing a temp for the coolant instead of “lo”, this can happen. Double your odds if you use the key.

Just stop doing those things above and the issue is gone.


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That simse to be the only way so far. Wondering if brand new bike do the same. Mine has about 43K miles

 

[sergeyd]

Wauv..gunslinger is a hard guy...he set up rules

(other bikes can start ANYTIME, even when stopped again cold)

that's what I'm saying. 2013 bike that was 13K new shouldn't act like that

 

[sergeyd]

@sergeyd - Sorry to read that you are having some issues. A little more info may help narrow down if this is just the typical hard start or more than that. It would appear from your original post that this didn't used to happen, but is becoming a regular occurrence?

What year is your bike?

It's 2013

How many miles on it now?

43xxxmiles

When was the last time you had the valves checked/adjusted?

I don't think it was ever done really.

Have you had any service work done, or done any yourself lately? (Or what was the last thing done?)

I did everything myself. Sparkplugs, filter, clean throtte body nothing crazy.

Gen I, (2010-2013), Super Tens don't like being shut down before full warm up and that can trigger a hard start. Especially when the bikes are very cold, like parked outside overnight and it's sub 50F. My '12 did not like cold mornings after being parked outside all night if I stalled it, it would give me a hard start. Once I learned to immediately give it 1/2 to 3/4 throttle on the next starting attempt after a fail to start, AND to cycle the key switch off first, I nearly always got it to fire back up ok w/o long cranking.

One of the symptoms of valves being out of adjustment is hard starting. If this has been slowly getting worse and you haven't had the valves adjusted, that might be something to get looked at. Carbon build up on the valves has also been known to cause this, but it usually has to be pretty bad. Yamaha sells a product to mix with the gas that helps this called "Ring Free Plus". It's more common in the outboard motor world, but I've used it and it works. There are other products that help too.

I'll do that. I should be a video out there how to adjust valves
I really love the bike and that's the only real issue I have with it.

I never had a hard start on my Gen II Super Ten. If you have a Gen II bike, then valve adjustment, Throttle body sync and verifying the cam chain tensioner is doing it's thing are the first things I'd suggest you look more closely at.

Not 2nd gen yeat I'll probably wait for a completely new model

 

[EricV]

So Gen I 2013 bike with 43k on it. Did you get the valves checked at ~26k?

What did you do when you "cleaned the throttle bodies"

And what is your normal riding like? Commute ride of XX distance? 200+ mile rides? Short trips for errands?

 

[sergeyd]

I dont make the rules, some intern at yamaha programming the cold start enrichments routine did that.

Mine will hard start too if its killed with the key during cold enrichment. The extra fuel washes the oil off the cylinder walls and you lose compression. Takes a bunch of starts to build it back.


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that is the first time I head explanation of why that happens actually it make more sense now

 

[sergeyd]

So Gen I 2013 bike with 43k on it. Did you get the valves checked at ~26k?

What did you do when you "cleaned the throttle bodies"

And what is your normal riding like? Commute ride of XX distance? 200+ mile rides? Short trips for errands?

I bought it with 39K miles. Hard to tell what was done. No paperwork except for wiring recall.
Commuting 2-3 times per week. And Usually go for weekend ride twice per month (250-300 miles). I'm not doing much. Like 4000-5000 per year.

 

[EricV]

I bought it with 39K miles. Hard to tell what was done. No paperwork except for wiring recall.
Commuting 2-3 times per week. And Usually go for weekend ride twice per month (250-300 miles). I'm not doing much. Like 4000-5000 per year.

It would be worth the cost to have the valves checked/adjusted and get a new CCT installed. Considering the issues you are experiencing, I would not wait until 52k. Some Gen I CCTs have failed at under 50k miles. Mine, (one of the first to fail), catastrophically died at 83k. I had full warranty to repair it, but you likely don't have the YES to cover it and repairs were over $4k.

Edit - Forgot to mention it, but with your usage, you really should be using a maintenance charger like an Optimate 3

 

[gunslinger_006]

that is the first time I head explanation of why that happens actually it make more sense now

Me too. Until i learned what was actually happening, i was a bit obsessed with trying to solve the puzzle. I figured something was wrong with my bike when it happened to me the first time.

This is not the only FI yamaha that does this. My 2003 yamaha warrior would do it, my 2007 fz6 would do it....it seems to be something in the core yamaha fuel injection logic. I am not sure if other brands do this also?


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[WJBertrand]

I had a 1978 Yamaha XS750E triple, well before EFI became common and it had cold start issues too. If the engine didn’t immediately start with the push of the starter switch, there never seemed to be enough juice left in the battery for a second try. It would just crank too slowly to catch. Luckily that bike still had a kick starter, but even so it would take a lot of kicks after a failed electric starter attempt. I finally resolved to only use the kick starter for the first cold start of the day. Must be a Yamaha thing?


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[gunslinger_006]

I had a 1978 Yamaha XS750E triple, well before EFI became common and it had cold start issues too. If the engine didn’t immediately start with the push of the starter switch, there never seemed to be enough juice left in the battery for a second try. It would just crank too slowly to catch. Luckily that bike still had a kick starter, but even so it would take a lot of kicks after a failed electric starter attempt. I finally resolved to only use the kick starter for the first cold start of the day. Must be a Yamaha thing?


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That is how my warrior was. If you let off the start button before it was fully started, it could die and then you were best just waiting 20m before starting it, or you would have to crank it over a lot more than the battery wanted.


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[EricV]

A lot of older Yamahas used a wax choke for cold starts. My '04 FJR had that. Snow machines are notorious for the wash down hard starts. Different mechanisms, similar problems. There's a 'tell' somewhere in that data.