Hard Start- Is there a solution?

Jlq1969

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
1,749
Location
Argentina
Always in the cold start, the mixture is richer than with temperature. You dont have “hard start” (EricV also said it) for low CCA In battery. If runs well in hot temp, if start well in cold, but you need to have it accelerated until its warm up, maybe it is failing the automatic cold throttle (electric motor in the intake body).
Mine, in the cold start, accelerates and then it slows down as it heat up
 

1slo-xtz

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
10
The question now is why is the ECU not taking care of the mixture during the start-up process. I accept the TBs could be out of sync, but why does she run OK once through this starting stage. Intake air leaks, sensor errors, lambda/O2 all spring to mind & the fact that it hasn't seen Yamaha since PDI doesn't help, so I reckon we need a bit more diagnostics before any hard conclusions are made.

Can we get the OP to check for fault/error codes & see what we have.............

Kickstand down
Transmission in 1st
Kill switch STOP
Press and hold TCS and RESET at the same time
Turn key ON
Continue to press and hold TCS and RESET until SELECT/ECU appears on the display
Press and hold TCS and RESET again until DIAG appears
Press and hold TCS and RESET again until 1/14 appears
Press TCS until 61/xx appears. xx is the fault code, if there is more than one they will appear in sequence
Press TCS until 62/xx appears. xx is the number of stored codes.
Turn key OFF to exit diagnostics

Then post the stored codes on the system. Hopefully this will give us a steer.

It's easy enough to clear the codes at the final stage, before exiting diagnostics - just flip kill switch to RUN then STOP. However I suggest they are left extant at this stage.
After experiencing the same starting problems this morning with a 14s battery, code 19 and 30 are displayed.

Do you know how I can find out what those codes mean? I’m getting conflicting answers from google. I think they're referring to the kick stand sensor and the tip over sensor, but I could be wrong.

Thanks!
 
Last edited:

Squibb

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
1,064
Location
Bedford, UK
Sorry but I'm not clear if these codes 19/30 that are showing are fault codes displayed to you on the dash without intervention, or self diagnostic codes after the check procedure we suggested you perform earlier?

As you say, fault code 19 is the side/kick stand switch.; a break or disconnection in the black/red lead. Fault code 30 is the tip over sensor; at this stage it's just a case of making sure it's secure - there have been many cases across all the brands where the sensor has been left loose after work on the bike, only to play up intermittently.

It would be a great help to see what diagnostic codes the ECU has stored, so please could you run the test session & report back.

Just an afterthought - is the exhaust system standard OE Yam, with cat, or has it been modified in any way - if so how?
 

1slo-xtz

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
10
Sorry but I'm not clear if these codes 19/30 that are showing are fault codes displayed to you on the dash without intervention, or self diagnostic codes after the check procedure we suggested you perform earlier?

As you say, fault code 19 is the side/kick stand switch.; a break or disconnection in the black/red lead. Fault code 30 is the tip over sensor; at this stage it's just a case of making sure it's secure - there have been many cases across all the brands where the sensor has been left loose after work on the bike, only to play up intermittently.

It would be a great help to see what diagnostic codes the ECU has stored, so please could you run the test session & report back.

Just an afterthought - is the exhaust system standard OE Yam, with cat, or has it been modified in any way - if so how?
No codes or check engine lights appear on my dash. I learned about codes 19 and 30 after performing the diagnostic check you suggested.

As far as I know, the exhaust is 100% stock. The engine just sputters and dies after starting when I clutch out and throttle on to begin moving. That is, unless I continue to rev it out for 5-10 seconds.
 

Squibb

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
1,064
Location
Bedford, UK
Thanks.

I use the generic Yamaha codes list, detailed in this link ................ https://www.motorcycle-manual.com/yamaha-fault-codes/
This downloads clean, if you want to retain it.

Looks like your self diagnostic code 19 still has something to do with the side stand switch system, which could include the clutch switch. Probably best if you can tell us whether the bike will start or energise the fuel pump immediately if you try to start her in gear, with the clutch pulled in, or do you have to select neutral for a start? Have you looked at the sidestand switch & the integrity of the wiring? These have a hard life & can suffer corrosion/water ingress.

Self diag code 30 appear to be the coil/s? on No1 cylinder, rather than fault code 30 (SD code 8) the tip-over switch. Now we have 2 per cylinder on the S10, so maybe someone with the S10 Workshop Service Manual can comment on how our coil codes run. Sadly, it's not uncommon for a coil stick to fail, often without a code in the early stages. It would be worth checking the connections to the coils are all good/clean initially. The possibilty is water ingress past the stick seals that then sieeps down around each plug & creates a horrible mess - just use search to find examples. Bikes parked outside, those ridden in a monsoon & bikes cleaned using the good old pressure washer seem to suffer most. So, if she won't behave after you have checked the coil connections, then it's a case of pulling the coil sticks & seeing what you find - take care, the sticks don't come cheap - again there is plenty of info available using search. Check the spark plugs while you are at it & replace anything that's not pristine - I say this as I am remembering you only have 3k miles on the clock - most will simply replace all 4 for good measure.

Finally, whilst you are under the tank, check the vacuum caps/pipes on the thottle bodies are OK; in place securely & not cracked or perished.

Good luck with the quest.
 

2daMax

Active Member
Joined
Jun 3, 2015
Messages
675
Location
Penang, Malaysia
The Air screws on the TB could be partially blocked from the oil mist returning from the engine to the air box. The barbs are likely blacken and I would treat it with some TB cleaner to clear them out. Do the 3/4 turn out of the reference screw.

Also a couple of cases in Malaysia, 1 having non-start and 1 having rough and intermittent fueling, both attributed to debris in the tank. If the bike sits too long, contaminants in the fuel will turn to solids and reside in the fuel filter.
 

SkunkWorks

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
1,735
Location
Colorado
After experiencing the same starting problems this morning with a 14s battery, code 19 and 30 are displayed.

Do you know how I can find out what those codes mean? I’m getting conflicting answers from google. I think they're referring to the kick stand sensor and the tip over sensor, but I could be wrong.

Thanks!
According to the FSM for 2014-up:

[Images have been deleted. Pages of the factory service manual are copyright protected by Yamaha and can not be copied on this or any other forum. - CW]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

SkunkWorks

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 13, 2018
Messages
1,735
Location
Colorado
[Images have been deleted. Pages of the factory service manual are copyright protected by Yamaha and can not be copied on this or any other forum. - CW]
 
Last edited by a moderator:

1slo-xtz

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
10
Just to update: I changed the spark plugs and had a mechanic sync the TBs. The old plugs looked fine and the coils packs seemed to be in good condition.

The TBs were in sync and didn’t require adjustment, according to the mechanic. He told me the bike ran fine if it sat idling for 1-2 minutes, which I do not do. He recommended just letting it idle before riding, since he did not see anything out of the ordinary.

I’m not sure what to do, since I expect this bike to run like my car.

I guess I’ll call the dealership next?
 

Sierra1

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2016
Messages
14,819
Location
Joshua TX
I don't think I let mine sit THAT long before I take off, but after seeing other's issues, I start it and let it idle while I put my helmet on and sync my Sena. I had a Honda, that if you started it, and immediately took off quickly, it would stall as soon as you let off of the throttle; but it would start right back up.
 

EricV

Riding, farkling, riding...
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
8,227
Location
Tupelo, MS
Just to update: I changed the spark plugs and had a mechanic sync the TBs. The old plugs looked fine and the coils packs seemed to be in good condition.

The TBs were in sync and didn’t require adjustment, according to the mechanic. He told me the bike ran fine if it sat idling for 1-2 minutes, which I do not do. He recommended just letting it idle before riding, since he did not see anything out of the ordinary.

I’m not sure what to do, since I expect this bike to run like my car.

I guess I’ll call the dealership next?
First, please put your location in your profile.

Second, go over to your mechanic and give him as swift kick in the butt. Hard.

He did nothing except check that the TB were in sync. What he should have done is what I posted earlier. The engine runs on three things, Air, Fuel and Spark. What it sounds like from your descriptions is that it's not getting enough air. The painted idle air screw on the throttle body needs to be screwed all the way in, then backed out 3/4 of a turn. Then the other TB needs to be synced to the one with the painted screw.

Just checking to see if they are equally matched does nothing to solve the issue. You need to increase the air flow at idle. Most likely the TB with the painted idle air screw is too far in, not giving it enough air.

I may be wrong, internet diagnostics are never easy. But this is a known issue and this very simple fix could solve your issues. The dealer may not be willing to do this due to emissions issues or liability concerns.

Do you have any mates that can help you sync the TBs yourself?
 

1slo-xtz

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
10
First, please put your location in your profile.

Second, go over to your mechanic and give him as swift kick in the butt. Hard.

He did nothing except check that the TB were in sync. What he should have done is what I posted earlier. The engine runs on three things, Air, Fuel and Spark. What it sounds like from your descriptions is that it's not getting enough air. The painted idle air screw on the throttle body needs to be screwed all the way in, then backed out 3/4 of a turn. Then the other TB needs to be synced to the one with the painted screw.

Just checking to see if they are equally matched does nothing to solve the issue. You need to increase the air flow at idle. Most likely the TB with the painted idle air screw is too far in, not giving it enough air.

I may be wrong, internet diagnostics are never easy. But this is a known issue and this very simple fix could solve your issues. The dealer may not be willing to do this due to emissions issues or liability concerns.

Do you have any mates that can help you sync the TBs yourself?
As far as I know, the mechanic attached the TB to a harmonic balancer and found that they were both equally balanced without doing any adjustments.

I chose to go to the mechanic since his hourly rate was less than buying a balancer myself.

I’m from Eugene, OR.

Do you think that I should try syncing the TBs myself if they’re already supposed to be balanced?
 

EricV

Riding, farkling, riding...
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
8,227
Location
Tupelo, MS
As far as I know, the mechanic attached the TB to a harmonic balancer and found that they were both equally balanced without doing any adjustments.
Yes, that's exactly what he did. That's not good enough. All that tells you is that the air flow is matched on the two TBs. It's still not enough air. He has to open up the base air idle screw on one TB, (the one with the painted mark on the screw), then match the other TB to that.

The proven method is to first screw the painted screw all the way in, then back it out 3/4 of a turn. This is documented to be adequate air flow. Now that one TB has more air flow at idle, it becomes the new baseline. Now he has to match the other TB to that new setting, which will in turn give the other TB equal and greater flow than it has now.

I chose to go to the mechanic since his hourly rate was less than buying a balancer myself.
That's only good the first time. A cheap balancer will pay for itself many times. This is routine maintenance stuff. You'll want to do it again in another year, just to check that they are still balanced and tweak them into balance if they are not.

I’m from Eugene, OR.
Great, I used to live in P-town. Add it to your profile. It gives context to your comments and questions and makes it easier for people to help or understand your point of view.

Do you think that I should try syncing the TBs myself if they’re already supposed to be balanced?
You're not getting what I'm trying very hard to explain. Balance is only part of the equation. Too little air at idle is still balanced. It's about getting more air flow at idle. Yes, you still want the two TBs balanced, but at a greater air flow.

The fuel doesn't go thru the TBs. Only air. Fuel goes thru the injectors directly into the combustion chamber. You don't need to adjust the fuel. Therefore, the way you control and adjust idle and create a stable idle so it won't die is to adjust the amount of air going thru the throttle bodies when the throttle plates are closed, I.E. at idle. that's what the idle air screws on TBs are for. Those are the screws being adjusted to balance the TBs.

If you do it yourself, you'll know what's being done. You'll have the ability to try more airflow if your first adjustment doesn't work. The Factory procedure doesn't call for doing this. The mechanic isn't going to do this on his own w/o direction from you, (and then he still may not do it).

MotionPro $99 Morgan Carbtune $60 CarbMate $130

Consider signing up for the Oregon Biker Scum email listserv. There are a lot of good people there that are very knowledgeable and someone likely has a manometer tool that would be willing to help you do the job yourself or even do it for you for beer or lunch. They aren't hardcore bikers, most are computer nerds that ride. OBS is somewhat tongue in cheek for the name. I was on that list for years between 2002 and 2011, before I moved to Southern Utah.
 

1slo-xtz

New Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2019
Messages
10
Yes, that's exactly what he did. That's not good enough. All that tells you is that the air flow is matched on the two TBs. It's still not enough air. He has to open up the base air idle screw on one TB, (the one with the painted mark on the screw), then match the other TB to that.

The proven method is to first screw the painted screw all the way in, then back it out 3/4 of a turn. This is documented to be adequate air flow. Now that one TB has more air flow at idle, it becomes the new baseline. Now he has to match the other TB to that new setting, which will in turn give the other TB equal and greater flow than it has now.



That's only good the first time. A cheap balancer will pay for itself many times. This is routine maintenance stuff. You'll want to do it again in another year, just to check that they are still balanced and tweak them into balance if they are not.

Great, I used to live in P-town. Add it to your profile. It gives context to your comments and questions and makes it easier for people to help or understand your point of view.



You're not getting what I'm trying very hard to explain. Balance is only part of the equation. Too little air at idle is still balanced. It's about getting more air flow at idle. Yes, you still want the two TBs balanced, but at a greater air flow.

The fuel doesn't go thru the TBs. Only air. Fuel goes thru the injectors directly into the combustion chamber. You don't need to adjust the fuel. Therefore, the way you control and adjust idle and create a stable idle so it won't die is to adjust the amount of air going thru the throttle bodies when the throttle plates are closed, I.E. at idle. that's what the idle air screws on TBs are for. Those are the screws being adjusted to balance the TBs.

If you do it yourself, you'll know what's being done. You'll have the ability to try more airflow if your first adjustment doesn't work. The Factory procedure doesn't call for doing this. The mechanic isn't going to do this on his own w/o direction from you, (and then he still may not do it).

MotionPro $99 Morgan Carbtune $60 CarbMate $130

Consider signing up for the Oregon Biker Scum email listserv. There are a lot of good people there that are very knowledgeable and someone likely has a manometer tool that would be willing to help you do the job yourself or even do it for you for beer or lunch. They aren't hardcore bikers, most are computer nerds that ride. OBS is somewhat tongue in cheek for the name. I was on that list for years between 2002 and 2011, before I moved to Southern Utah.
Do you think this Twinmax will do the job? I’ll order it and give it a shot...

https://www.ebay.com/i/283102517702?chn=ps&ul_ref=https%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F711-117182-37290-0%2F2%3Fmpre%3Dhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.ebay.com%252Fi%252F283102517702%253Fchn%253Dps%26itemid%3D283102517702%26targetid%3D593772290133%26device%3Dm%26adtype%3Dpla%26googleloc%3D1014221%26poi%3D%26campaignid%3D1689945013%26adgroupid%3D69559042287%26rlsatarget%3Dpla-593772290133%26abcId%3D1140466%26merchantid%3D113794742%26gclid%3DEAIaIQobChMIu6fvgMKr4QIVmMpkCh0kxQ_HEAkYASABEgJARvD_BwE%26srcrot%3D711-117182-37290-0%26rvr_id%3D1916621244863%26rvr_ts%3Dd1f3de821690ad4e3fc0c8e9ffd6e128
 

EricV

Riding, farkling, riding...
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
8,227
Location
Tupelo, MS
Yes, the TwinMax is an excellent tool that will do the job. Remember that you are after more air flow, so first adjusting the screw with the painted mark by turning it full in, then backing it out 3/4 turn is important before you start with the TwinMax to balance the two TBs again.

When you turn the painted screw in, keep track of how much it takes to turn in to bottom. Write that down in your owner's manual so you will have it for reference later of what it was before you started messing with things. Do the same thing for the other TB. It will be useful to compare to the 3/4 turn, and may give you info to decide how to adjust the screw later. You can also return it to where it was if all else fails.

Most bikes appear to come with the screws all the way in to begin with, so keep in mind that you may not be able to turn the screw in more than it currently is.

Note that when you start adjusting the other TB to balance, you may need to turn it in or out. It's not a given which TB will have the painted screw or which direction you will need to go to balance. It becomes all about balancing the second TB to the one with the white paint mark on the screw, that was the original base adjustment, and will become your new base adjustment once you have opened it up to 3/4 turn. You won't be messing with it again during balancing unless you find you can't balance the second TB to it w/o opening it up more.

Some S10 riders have found better results with the screw backed out more than 3/4 turn as well. So after you have adjusted the TB base, then re-balanced/sync'd the TBs, go for a ride or three and see how it rides. If the problem still exists, you can try backing out the reference TB more and re-syncing. That's the beauty of doing this yourself. You can repeat and try different things until you are satisfied.

Apparently the European bikes normally come with the screws 3/4 turn out, but the US bikes come with them all the way in. You won't know where yours are until you check. Be careful not to force anything. If you become uncomfortable, seek out assistance. I have a friend in Stayton that may be willing to help you if need be.
 

WJBertrand

Ventura Highway
Joined
Jun 20, 2015
Messages
4,516
Location
Ventura, CA
The EFI, does indeed feed fuel though the throttle body. The injectors are clearly attached to them. There are direct injection systems on some cars (and diesels) in which the fuel is indeed directly injected to the combustion chamber, but our super Ténéré does not have that design.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 

EricV

Riding, farkling, riding...
2011 Site Supporter
2012 Site Supporter
2013 Site Supporter
2014 Site Supporter
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
8,227
Location
Tupelo, MS
The EFI, does indeed feed fuel though the throttle body. The injectors are clearly attached to them. There are direct injection systems on some cars (and diesels) in which the fuel is indeed directly injected to the combustion chamber, but our super Ténéré does not have that design.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
The point is that you have no way to adjust the fuel, in terms of manual adjustments. Fuel thru the injectors is being sprayed after the throttle plate, not before. There is no intake plenum in the way you see on some cars with throttle body injection.
 

Jlq1969

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 5, 2018
Messages
1,749
Location
Argentina
a long, long time ago, in times of cars to carburetors, when it was difficult to regulate the idle between 4 weber, there were some traps to get them to regulate evenly. they called it "compensate" ... but it was long ago ... beautiful times
74F4199B-90EB-4012-A12B-756E388DD980.jpegAF9A742D-DA0E-45E0-A29C-BDBE833E2FEE.jpeg
 
Top