Had High Idle problem - Now stumbling

stutrump

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Hi folks. I've read all the High Idle posts on here. I've changed sparkies, no difference)..checked throttle cables (fine), checked all connectors (fine), checked the EMI?? problem (electro magnetic interference issue as posted about on here).
Still having problems. I'm very reluctant to go to a dealer because (like others on here) I reckon they'll spend hours trying to sort it, draw a blank, and give me a huge bill that I cant afford right now or worse still they'll start changing bits that dont need changing.
I'm really out of ideas now though so any help would be much appreciated. Bike is a 2011 with about 58k on it. Symptoms are high idle at start up (hot or cold)..revs at about 4,000 and then it settles down after a long run. Thanks in advance for any help/ideas.

[Modified thread title Aug 3, 2016 - CW]
 

stutrump

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

No idea where the 20 or so replies to this have gone (is the forum having tech probs). On previous replies someone recommended that I check for vacuum leaks. I can't find any vacuum hoses anywhere...am I being thick? Any help/pics will be greatfully received! Cheers
 

The Ferret

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Theres a hose on the left throttle body that goes to a pressure sensor. Other possible leaks will be on the vacuum caps that seal the nipples on which you would connect your vacuum guages. I've heard these harden with age.

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stutrump

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Thanks Ferrett. I'll have a look when I get chance. I've found the nipples before. They seem fine. Never seen that hose but I'll have another look. Cheers
 

Squibb

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Definitely an air leak somewhere. Bearing in mind the bike's age, my money is on the rubber cap on the throttle body - these crack up & admit air. Worse when cold, improves as the engine heats up.

Fredz43 has produced a good vid concurrently to describe the TB balancing procedure here < https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgcnOD7K_9k&feature=youtu.be > which specifically mentions this issue.

Is the frail little wire clip still in place; are all the other vac lines/clips intact. It's so easy for a tech to forget to connect/clip something properly when doing a TBB, which doesn't notice for a while. Once the leak has been discovered, it makes sense to do a TB sync.

Good luck ...................... KEN
 

2daMax

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Did you check the ignition coils for corrosion? Seems to be the most likely root cause for erratic idle.
 

stutrump

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Thanks folks. The coils have been corroded for a while and way before I started having this problem but thanks anyway
 

EricV

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Considering what you have already checked, there is most likely a major air leak somewhere. I would suggest you check the air filter to make sure it is in good condition and properly seated, but then look at the throttle body to air box boots. If the airbox has been previously removed, this is a fairly common problem where the boots don't get put back correctly or are damaged during re-installation and leak air, despite being clamped well.

A damaged crank position sensor could also be the fault, but that is rather rare. Another odd problem would be the air box temp sensor. Check that it is plugged in solidly, (both the electrical connection and the sensor to the airbox in it's rubber grommet), and has no corrosion in the plug connection. I'll try and look up a testing procedure this evening for the temp sensor.

Your throttle bodies have two nipples for the vacuum lines used for balancing them. As others have said, they should have rubber caps on them that are not cracked. This is a very common issue too.

Have you checked for error codes on the ECU? This may provide a clue in what direction to look.
 

The Ferret

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

the problem we have here is that the error codes won't display - problem with the console.
However my bike was ridden with the throttle bodies sat on top of the inlet manifold and suffered similar surging between 3-4k rpm. No engine warning light.

I reseated the throttle bodies , replaced to coils and coated all coils in dielectric grease. I'm pleased with the result. I reckon Stu has a cunning air leak somewhere and Eric's review should find it.
Those vacuum nipples are expensive for what they are. Some closed off vacuum tubing could help decide if they're at fault.
 

Kevhunts

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

stutrump said:
Thanks folks. The coils have been corroded for a while and way before I started having this problem but thanks anyway
Perhaps the corrosion is now a factor?

Did you remove the air cleaner? Did you hook up the breather hose? Tighten the clamps?

I'd also like to see what your battery voltage is with the key off, key on, at idle and 3000rpm.
 

EricV

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Any luck sorting out the high idle?
 

stutrump

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Hi folks. Im going to see a different mechanic today that I hope can check a few of your suggestions with me. I've tried checking most of these things myself but he may do better! More soon and thanks again for your help.
 

stutrump

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Here's an update folks that I hope will get some ideas in response!! Before I start however, you all seem to mention rubber capS on the throttle bodies. I only have one, and one vacuum tube.
Anyway...here goes.
I went to my local mechanic and together we changed the plugs AND (his suggestion) removed the corroded metal sleeves from around the coils.
Fabulous, I was a happy man because for the first time in about 5 months, the bike ran without coughing and spluttering. It was brilliant and I was in love again.
BUT, 12 days and 1,500 miles later the bike started coughing and spluttering again.
Aarrrgghh!!
Any ideas gratefully received but please remember that I cant do diagnostics (left button on console doesn't work) and the 2 Yamaha dealers I've been too have been rather honest and told me there isn't really anything they can do if they cant run diagnostics on it.
Cheers for any ideas!
 

EricV

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

stutrump said:
Here's an update folks that I hope will get some ideas in response!! Before I start however, you all seem to mention rubber capS on the throttle bodies. I only have one, and one vacuum tube.
No, you have two throttle bodies and two vacuum ports. One has a short length of hose running to another part of the TB, but many of us have installed a Tee fitting there and put a cap on one leg of the Tee, allowing for quicker TB syncs, when we do that. The throttle side TB has a cap from the factory, the clutch side TB has the hose. The hose can develop leaks and cracks too, so do check that out. For TB sync, you remove the hose to plug in the sync tool, along with the cap on the other TB, so both are connected.

Makes me wonder if your plug wires are shorting to the valve cover, or frame. That can cause many issues like you describe, and might be why removing the corroded sleeves worked for 1500 miles. You might try wrapping the plug wires with some type of insulation tape. Silicone stuff that only sticks to itself comes to mind. They sell it for various leak repairs, often at automotive and plumbing stores.
 

Kevhunts

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

I thought your issue was a high idle problem?
 

Checkswrecks

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

stutrump said:
Here's an update folks that I hope will get some ideas in response!! Before I start however, you all seem to mention rubber capS on the throttle bodies. I only have one, and one vacuum tube.
Anyway...here goes.
I went to my local mechanic and together we changed the plugs AND (his suggestion) removed the corroded metal sleeves from around the coils.
Fabulous, I was a happy man because for the first time in about 5 months, the bike ran without coughing and spluttering. It was brilliant and I was in love again.
BUT, 12 days and 1,500 miles later the bike started coughing and spluttering again.
Aarrrgghh!!
Any ideas gratefully received but please remember that I cant do diagnostics (left button on console doesn't work) and the 2 Yamaha dealers I've been too have been rather honest and told me there isn't really anything they can do if they cant run diagnostics on it.
Cheers for any ideas!
As Eric wrote, what you wrote seems to be something completely different. Suddenly coughing and sputtering after running right, my first go-to guess is usually water in the gas, frequently past a leaky gas cap seal. The UK sure gets enough rain and you've got a Gen1 bike.

You can definitely trouble-shoot like we did before we had diagnostics.
 

The Ferret

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Stu you might want to replace your coils. £37 each cheapest I found. You could/should spray the coils with dielectric spray. Maplins do a good one. Designed to prevent arcing.

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stutrump

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

Thanks again folks. Definitely not water in fuel (I've had that in bikes before). I've emptied the fuel tank twice to check for that. EricV..thanks, Im guessing you mean the wires that go from the coils to the loom? Ferrett..thanks but it now has two new coils. Only bought two to start with because one good one on each side should be enough and it appears that didn't solve the problem so I dont think its the coils. Finally (cant remember who said it)..yes it WAS a high idle problem 5 months ago but it developed into this current ongoing problem. Sorry for any typos (my fat fingers on the phone). Will probably go back to the mechanic next week. Problem is I need it and use it every day for work. Getting fed up riding it like it is. Horrible!!! Cheers tho folks
 

EricV

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

stutrump said:
EricV..thanks, Im guessing you mean the wires that go from the coils to the loom?
Yes, before coil on plug set ups, it was not uncommon for the insulation on the wire that ran from the plug to the coil to get old, crack and short to any metal surface. This would cause stumbles and lack of power and poor running, and most often display under load more than just light cruising down the road. Any kind of load to the engine, up a hill, acceleration, etc. would suddenly display pronounced rough running or stumble.

Now, keep in mind, on the older design, this was a high current arc coming from the coils, but I suspect even the wires from the loom to the coil on plug design we have could cause similar issues, thought I admit it seems less likely.

Another thought that runs along a different line is the ignition switch. I have seen wear in the switch cause odd problems, but it usually starts with accessory power items. Any oddness in your parking lights or headlights? This issue is related to the pieces in the switch not making solid contact when rotated between positions. Sometimes they do, and everything works great, sometimes they don't and things get wonky. If that rings a bell, perhaps something to look at. Otherwise, don't spend too much time thinking in that direction.

Air, Fuel, Spark. Any problem with an internal combustion engine is related to one of those three things. Narrow it down to one, and the diagnostic process gets much simpler!

Sounds like you have reasonably eliminated Fuel. Air can not be discounted just yet, as there are many different sources, from intake leaks to vac leaks and you had that high idle issue before... was that tracked down to something specific, or did it just "go away"?

Spark is a sneaky devil that can masquerade as fuel and sometimes air. Flaky ground someplace, (check ALL the grounds in the harness), or sensor, switch or short can cause rough running and stumbles. Much more challenging to narrow this one down. Sometimes it's about what signal the ECU is getting and is that normal or abby normal. Temp sensors, MAP sensors, TPS getting worn, and on and on.

Sorry to not be more helpful. Good luck on the hunt for the problem. An old adage is to look at the last thing you did before the problem occurred. We often do these things to ourselves!!
 

Kevhunts

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Re: Help!! High Idle problem....still!!!!

stutrump said:
Here's an update folks that I hope will get some ideas in response!! Before I start however, you all seem to mention rubber capS on the throttle bodies. I only have one, and one vacuum tube.
Anyway...here goes.
I went to my local mechanic and together we changed the plugs AND (his suggestion) removed the corroded metal sleeves from around the coils.
Fabulous, I was a happy man because for the first time in about 5 months, the bike ran without coughing and spluttering. It was brilliant and I was in love again.
BUT, 12 days and 1,500 miles later the bike started coughing and spluttering again.
Aarrrgghh!!
Any ideas gratefully received but please remember that I cant do diagnostics (left button on console doesn't work) and the 2 Yamaha dealers I've been too have been rather honest and told me there isn't really anything they can do if they cant run diagnostics on it.
Cheers for any ideas!
You are really handy-capping yourself by not fixing your diagnostics. While they may not tell you exactly what component or system is bad, they could point you in the right direction.
What if diagnostics revealed a mis-firing coil or plug? You say your mechanic removed some corroded metal sleeves from your coils, perhaps they are shields of some kind? They were on there for a reason agreed? They corroded because of moisture. Perhaps after 12 days/1500 miles you got moisture in there again causing your current issues?
 
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