Had a lowside, no help from TCS?

fredz43

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As far as I am aware, the S10 traction control doesn't provide any protection when leaned over. Some of the newer high tech bikes (Aprilla?) claim that they have improved their traction control so as to be able to do that, but ours can't.
 

Madhatter

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i have shinko 705s and they do a good job(as I will buy them again ) as the past year have been mostly on asphalt ,and everything we do depends on the contact patch . on rain days I see cars in the ditch because they believed the tire commercials , and bikes no matter the tire have very small contact patches . and we have huge power to weight ratios..... sometimes we just have to behave...
 

Nikolajsen

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As far as I am aware, the S10 traction control doesn't provide any protection when leaned over.
I truely believe that it will provide the same protection as when running straight up.
BUT, there will of course be the same amount of "spinning wheel" as when straight up, and when you are leaning over, you have to consider the sideways gravity, so if the wheel loose grip...(and it will for some milliseconds),and when leaning over, it will slide sideways, and if the tire and/or surface is in a condition where the rubber won't get the grip again..well...down you go:eek:
 

fredz43

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Checkswrecks

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I truely believe that it will provide the same protection as when running straight up.
BUT, there will of course be the same amount of "spinning wheel" as when straight up, and when you are leaning over, you have to consider the sideways gravity, so if the wheel loose grip...(and it will for some milliseconds),and when leaning over, it will slide sideways, and if the tire and/or surface is in a condition where the rubber won't get the grip again..well...down you go:eek:
Which is what I wrote.
 

Checkswrecks

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As far as I am aware, the S10 traction control doesn't provide any protection when leaned over. Some of the newer high tech bikes (Aprilla?) claim that they have improved their traction control so as to be able to do that, but ours can't.
Our TCS doesn't supply DIFFERENT protection leaned than when straight up, but the TCS is still there and protecting to the best it can. The added features in the new KTMs, BMWs, and other Euro bikes basically just use angle and downward acceleration to allow less slippage of the tires when leaned over.
 

fredz43

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Our TCS doesn't supply DIFFERENT protection leaned than when straight up, but the TCS is still there and protecting to the best it can. The added features in the new KTMs, BMWs, and other Euro bikes basically just use angle and downward acceleration to allow less slippage of the tires when leaned over.
Thanks for that, Bob. So are you saying that our TCS DOES work when we are leaned over and accelerating?
 

Jlq1969

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the TCS going to act, but if the oversteer already started, tcs will not stop it, only cut gas to decrease the rear spin but, it can not stop the inertia. just you with a counter-handle, and the help of the tcs can try to avoid the rear skid
 

WJBertrand

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I think TCS would still activate when the bike is lent over, without an IMU, the controller would not know what the orientation of the bike is. Just because TCS has activated doesn't mean it'll effectively handle that situation though as it has no way to detect a sideways slide.
 

Jlq1969

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I think TCS would still activate when the bike is lent over, without an IMU, the controller would not know what the orientation of the bike is. Just because TCS has activated doesn't mean it'll effectively handle that situation though as it has no way to detect a sideways slide.
YES, you are rigth.....the TCS is only TCS....is not a ESP
 

fac191

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I thought ktm was the only manufacturer to have lean angle TCS.
No? At what angle?
As far as i know its built into the ECU. So for example when the new Euro Emmisions came in for new bikes that have updated ECUs so alot of the Tec is already there, like with comuter chips.
 

Checkswrecks

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Thanks for that, Bob. So are you saying that our TCS DOES work when we are leaned over and accelerating?
Works yes, but it is crude when compared to bikes with lean angle sensors and/or accelerometers. Ours is just based on difference in wheelspeed as I remember. The better systems have side to side accelerometers, vertical accelerometers, &/or gyroscopes, plus are using engine and vehicle speed rather than the 2 wheels alone.

Think of it this way: In a simple system, the ECU may allow a 5-10% difference between the front and rear wheel speed sensors and the data is coming at the rate of tire rotation. If the rear tire begins to slip sideways the loss of friction generally means your RPM will go up, so the ECU cuts throttle angle/input. This was state of the art in 2010 when the Yamaha was a class leading system in performance and the direct answer to your question. But if the rider is mentally in sync with the bike and reduces throttle slightly as traction is being lost, then the wheel speeds stay about the same till too deeply into the slide for the system response to recapture traction before gravity pulls down the leaned over bike.

In the new higher end systems, the accelerometers and other whiz-motchies can feel the initial sideways slip (& vertical accel) and probably do so before the rider does. The systems also are comparing that sideward acceleration against lean angle so the throttle isn't cut every time you get hit by a cross wind while upright. To get faster response they are also using engine parameters (thousands of rpm) rather than the comparatively slower wheel speeds (hundreds of rpm). It took me a while with an ABS engineer to understand how the newer TCS and ABS can function with tires individually because it's counter-intuitive. They do not need to sample and compare tires because they have enough other data to get good results.

A quick check of the intertoobs says that in addition to KTM, variations of the newer systems are now in BMW, Ducati, Aprilia, and probably others.
 

WJBertrand

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hink of it this way: In a simple system, the ECU may allow a 5-10% difference between the front and rear wheel speed sensors and the data is coming at the rate of tire rotation. If the rear tire begins to slip sideways the loss of friction generally means your RPM will go up, so the ECU cuts throttle angle/input. This was state of the art in 2010 when the Yamaha was a class leading system in performance and the direct answer to your question.
A lot of people forget that Honda introduced TCS way back in 1992 on the ST1100. I had a '93 ABS-TCS model. Not sure what the allowed slip percentage was but I know it would put the kibosh on any wheelie shenanigans in very short order. I also found out you could not move the bike out of sand without turning TCS off, it'd just bog the engine at the first sign of wheel spin and you weren't going anywhere. I feel like Yamaha's system lets a little more slip happen than that eary Honda system. I hardly ever see the TCS light on the Tenere unless I deliberately spin the rear wheel.
 

EricV

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Do a track day and learn about trail braking into the corner, reducing brake pressure in proportion to your lean angle and then transitioning smoothly directly from easing the brake off to gently feeding in throttle. Similar to proportioning your braking with lean angle, so should you proportion throttle application. In other words as the bike completes the turn, apply more and more throttle as it comes back to vertical. Never whack it, especially in a turn. As you found out that initiated a side slip that TCS is not really designed to handle.
While I don't take huge issue with what WJB has written, but remember you're on the street, not the track. Read up on riding The Pace . It's a lot more useful for street riding. If you see my brake lights, I'm stopping. Set corner speed before you enter the turn and never "whack" the throttle. Then ask your self, why are you slowing down? Really. If the corner is marked 35 mph or above, or not marked at all, you really don't need to slow down from ~65 mph. If you're riding much over that in the twisties... Revert to earlier comment, it's not the track.

TCS seems to be more useful off pavement. Trail braking is about settling the suspension, to a degree. Motorcycle suspension works under acceleration and braking, not in between. When it's floating in between braking and acceleration, it's not really working well. Trail braking before the apex can benefit to stability, then start rolling on the throttle as you pass the apex of the turn. That said, if you don't slow down, you just motor thru the corner at an even speed with minimal acceleration, which is stable. It's also a lot faster than you may think.

Brake in, throttle out is a valid track technique. Riding that way on the street just shows that you don't know how to set your speed for the road, IMHO. Even on bikes w/o all the engine braking the S10 has, I don't brake in, throttle out. I just don't slow down unless the road dictates it. Then I'm using the throttle to do this ahead of time. Sight lines; If I can't see far enough to stop safely, I'm likely going too fast for the conditions or road.

How fast you are comfortable taking that corner that you took the spill in is up to you. But set that speed before you get there and ride thru the corner. Braking hard at the last minute serves no purpose on the street. You do seem to understand you're dumping more speed than you need to, then attempting to compensate by jumping on the throttle afterwards. Until you straiten up, you simple don't have the traction to go full throttle yet. Read up on "traction pie". Lots of things diminish the traction pie.
 

fredz43

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A lot of people forget that Honda introduced TCS way back in 1992 on the ST1100. I had a '93 ABS-TCS model. Not sure what the allowed slip percentage was but I know it would put the kibosh on any wheelie shenanigans in very short order.
Hi, Jeff. Yes ,see my post #15 in this thread concerning wheelies on my 93 ABS-TCS ST1100. Still took some brisk throttle twisting, even with the TCS off. :D
 

WJBertrand

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Another advantage of trail braking into a corner is that with the forks partly compressed it helps to quicken the steering geometry making for easier turn-in and less likelihood of overshooting the corner via understeer. I don't see any issue at all braking into a corner on the road or the track, according to Eric however I don't know how to set my speed so don't listen to me! ;)
 
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