Had a lowside, no help from TCS?

munsonbw

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#1
Hi gang,

First, let me say I am not blaming the traction control. I know exactly what I did. But, I was surprised it caused the rear to come out from under me and had me wonder what the TCS is actually for.

I just left the house and maybe one mile down the road is a 90 degree right hander. Blacktop is about 3 months old and I saw no signs of oil or fuel on the dry road. I came into the turn very leisurely, braking before the turn and coasting into it. I was doing max 20 mph. After the apex I wacked the throttle (I guess) pretty agressively, though I was in T mode. Before I could even process what was happening I was on my way down. The best I can describe what happened was the bike "spun out". I mean, no drift-like slide that ended badly, but just wham! It did a 360 in the road hardly 20' from the first loss of traction and I ended up sliding (I think) backwards down the road ending in a somersault. I am absolutely fine. I was wearing full gear.

So, a couple of questions: I know I hit the throttle too hard, but I honestly didn't think that it was THAT much harder than any other time. Any thoughts as to what I may have done wrong otherwise? Not enough speed causing a barely loaded suspension? Cold tire? And what, exactly, can one expect TCS to help with?

Thanks
Ben
 

Madhatter

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#2
very good questions , cold tires have less grip, in a turn you are leaned over and that means smaller contact patch and that means less grip . big throttle overwhelms available grip , and I think brand new asphalt is a tad oily till it cures and weathers . the highway I was on today has brand new asphalt , nice and shiny, and shiny looks slippery.... TCS should activate when it senses a speed difference between front and rear tire , I know I can spin the rear on gravel to a point without activation , in fact when I have done that it never has activated (hmmmmm) so if it is working like it should ,on a straight line acceleration it should activate , but the Yamaha system seems to be a bit relaxed at times . so in a lean with all the above a loss of traction and spin out is possible.... the good news is there are a lot of smart riders on this forum who may have other insights.... so Yamaha allows some spin I think for off road performance , but the system they have is getting long in tooth , other makes have lean angle TCS and ABS , Yamaha does not . so I think plain ole physics bit you in the butt. glad you are ok.
 
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#4
still a great bike and very safe , just don't wack the throttle while leaned over.
Lots of torque and a higher than required gear is a good combination for loosing traction. Its also not lean sensitive either. If you want traction coasting will not give you that either. Sorry to hear you went down but we have to learn from everything.
 

munsonbw

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#7
Thanks for the insight. I definately am learning from this mistake. I am generally the slower rider in my group and my riding habit is to brake before the turn (usually finding out I could have gone faster), not trail brake, and then heavy on the throttle on exit to make up for lost corner speed. Now I know that the edge was perhaps closer than I realized.

Tires: Shinko 705, lots of tread

fac191: you nailed it. Now that you mention it, I was in a fairly high gear and it makes perfect sense with the high torque these motors have.

Panniers, crash bars and skid plate took 100% of the damage. 0 scratches anywhere else. So, anyone on the fence about installing that stuff I recommend it.
 

Cycledude

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#8
Tenere TCS might prevent you doing burnouts but that’s about it.
I have had my Tenere spinning for a couple hundred feet trying to get out my driveway with about 6 inches of new snow, there was a warning light flashing on the dash while I was spinning but that’s about it, as soon as I got on the clear paved road the flashing light disappeared.
 

Fennellg

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#9
Good info. I had traction control kick in on a turn or two. It’s not something to rely On. It’s. A get out of a jam thing that might save your bacon. The traction control kicked in just as I notice my rear wheel breaking fee. It reacted faster than me on both occasions. The first time was a test. The second was oops. Both times it did it’s job and cut enough power to the wheel to regain control. I believe I could have recovered on my own both times. But you never know. I like having it. I did not have it on my Harley’s. I got the rear to break free a couple of times. Recovered both times.
 

WJBertrand

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#10
Do a track day and learn about trail braking into the corner, reducing brake pressure in proportion to your lean angle and then transitioning smoothly directly from easing the brake off to gently feeding in throttle. Similar to proportioning your braking with lean angle, so should you proportion throttle application. In other words as the bike completes the turn, apply more and more throttle as it comes back to vertical. Never whack it, especially in a turn. As you found out that initiated a side slip that TCS is not really designed to handle.


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Checkswrecks

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#11
Sorry to hear about your bif and as tenman wrote, it's an aid, not a cure-all.

The technical answer is that if you had been more upright (or higher rpm discussed in a bit) then the TCS would have interrupted the power enough for traction to be re-established. The difference between leaned over and upright is that when upright the gravity force vector downward is roughly through the tire contact patch. When banked steeply, the SUM of force vectors is downward through the contact patch, but if diagrammed then there is a gravity vector to the side of the contact patch. There is now a sidewards force on the contact patch and friction is resisting a sideward slide. Once that patch of friction is released, all of your weight is free to follow gravity because a force vector has been removed from the force diagram. In English, if the patch can slide sideways faster than the TCS can cut torque to re-establish the sideward friction, then gravity wins.

If you have higher rpm (lower gear) then the TCS can respond faster. It's possible on this bike to go around a corner in gravel or dirt and have the rear end sliding a couple of inches out. With the revs up there's a higher data flow to the computer and it's outputs in throttle position don't need to be as precise.
 

munsonbw

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#12
In other words as the bike completes the turn, apply more and more throttle as it comes back to vertical. Never whack it, especially in a turn. As you found out that initiated a side slip that TCS is not really designed to handle.
I guess like many mistakes, after it happens you realize how stupid it was to have it happen. I was riding very, very leisurely and for some unknown reason on the corner exit I just decided to goose it and go "zoom".


Checkswrecks, I guess you are an engineer? While I am a chemical engineer, I did take statics (though this is dynamics I guess). Your explanation makes perfect sense.
 
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#14
TC is an aid. Not a cure
This.
Especially at full lean, TC can only donso much given a sudden aggressive input.
I've had the Tc 'fail' to stop a slide at high speed due to my sudden and very quick direction change. The rear moved out about a foot. I don't blame the TC, instead the tire.
 

fredz43

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#15
Has anyone tried doing a wheelie with the Tenere and it’s TCS ?
Yeah, it only allows mini wheelies. Got to turn it off to do some fun wheelies. Found that out with my first bike with traction control, a 1993 ST1300 that had a primitive version of TCS.

At almost 76 years old, I still enjoy wheelies. See signature motto. :D
 

Sierra1

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#16
....Tires: Shinko 705, lots of tread....
Now, I don't know what kind of tire composition the Shinko has, (hard or soft) and I also don't know how many miles you have put on them. I DO know that if you leaned farther over this time than you have before, there is a chance that you leaned onto a part of the tire that still had the preservative coating on it. Also, even though a new road, it may have had "stuff" on it. I once leaned a KZ1000 way over, and gave it a small amount of gas, and it started coming around. It had never happened before, and I didn't see anything, but those ol' KZs weren't known for their torque, so there was something on the road that I missed.
 

SHUMBA

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#17
Hi gang,

First, let me say I am not blaming the traction control. I know exactly what I did. But, I was surprised it caused the rear to come out from under me and had me wonder what the TCS is actually for.

I just left the house and maybe one mile down the road is a 90 degree right hander. Blacktop is about 3 months old and I saw no signs of oil or fuel on the dry road. I came into the turn very leisurely, braking before the turn and coasting into it. I was doing max 20 mph. After the apex I wacked the throttle (I guess) pretty agressively, though I was in T mode. Before I could even process what was happening I was on my way down. The best I can describe what happened was the bike "spun out". I mean, no drift-like slide that ended badly, but just wham! It did a 360 in the road hardly 20' from the first loss of traction and I ended up sliding (I think) backwards down the road ending in a somersault. I am absolutely fine. I was wearing full gear.

So, a couple of questions: I know I hit the throttle too hard, but I honestly didn't think that it was THAT much harder than any other time. Any thoughts as to what I may have done wrong otherwise? Not enough speed causing a barely loaded suspension? Cold tire? And what, exactly, can one expect TCS to help with?

Thanks
Ben
Well done, as I've often said "always wear your gear". It does take a millisecond for the traction control to do its job and in your circumstance, assuming that you were well leaned over along with a cold tyre is all it takes. On that note, tyres, condition, inflation, any cleaning products applied to make the sidewalls shiney and new?
SHUMBA

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SHUMBA

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#18
very good questions , cold tires have less grip, in a turn you are leaned over and that means smaller contact patch and that means less grip . big throttle overwhelms available grip , and I think brand new asphalt is a tad oily till it cures and weathers . the highway I was on today has brand new asphalt , nice and shiny, and shiny looks slippery.... TCS should activate when it senses a speed difference between front and rear tire , I know I can spin the rear on gravel to a point without activation , in fact when I have done that it never has activated (hmmmmm) so if it is working like it should ,on a straight line acceleration it should activate , but the Yamaha system seems to be a bit relaxed at times . so in a lean with all the above a loss of traction and spin out is possible.... the good news is there are a lot of smart riders on this forum who may have other insights.... so Yamaha allows some spin I think for off road performance , but the system they have is getting long in tooth , other makes have lean angle TCS and ABS , Yamaha does not . so I think plain ole physics bit you in the butt. glad you are ok.
That is a great explanation certainly far more than my two cents was.
SHUMBA

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SHUMBA

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#19
Thanks for the insight. I definately am learning from this mistake. I am generally the slower rider in my group and my riding habit is to brake before the turn (usually finding out I could have gone faster), not trail brake, and then heavy on the throttle on exit to make up for lost corner speed. Now I know that the edge was perhaps closer than I realized.

Tires: Shinko 705, lots of tread

fac191: you nailed it. Now that you mention it, I was in a fairly high gear and it makes perfect sense with the high torque these motors have.

Panniers, crash bars and skid plate took 100% of the damage. 0 scratches anywhere else. So, anyone on the fence about installing that stuff I recommend it.
Yup I wouldn't ride without crash bars, saved my bike twice so far, saved my Africa Twin 5 times. Always wear your gear..
SHUMBA

Sent from my SM-T380 using Tapatalk
 
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