Lithium-Ion batteries, EVs, and myth busting

[Eville Rich]

I'm sure that's there's quite a bit that goes into it, but what's chappin' my ass, is that IF "they" used all of their available resources, the present conditions wouldn't be as severe as they are. The power outages are shutting off the water systems. . . . which causes a whole 'nother set of issues. I know that there has to be a lot of frozen/broken water mains now, but we won't know which ones until the thaw. But, THEN, there won't be water, because the breaks have to be fixed. And, it's not like people have piles of money laying around to fix their broken pipes. . . . all because a certain group of people wanted to manipulate the market for personal gain.

I agree. It's a mess. It's not known if there was any market manipulation or not, but the end effects on the ground are severe. I'm also a little surprised as while Texas doesn't normally experience these cold snaps, they aren't unheard of. Is it that it's statewide? When I see the gulf coast temps still down around freezing, that's pretty tough for folks down there. Hopefully the federal assistance will help offset some of the impact, but it's still going be a big deal to recover.

I recall a few years back we had a stretch of -20F weather and we saw a fair amount of that in WI, where we're supposed to be able to handle that. The cities asked people to keep a trickle of water flowing to prevent freezing and did something on not charging for the added consumption. I felt lucky that our well and septic didn't freeze up. The previous owners made the septic deeper than normal, but there were a number of cases of frozen septic systems, which is a really bad experience as you might imagine.

Fingers crossed the damage is less than feared and that Texas has a quick recovery. At least this cold is going to break over the coming week.

Eville Rich

 

[magic]

I'm sure that's there's quite a bit that goes into it, but what's chappin' my ass, is that IF "they" used all of their available resources, the present conditions wouldn't be as severe as they are. The power outages are shutting off the water systems. . . . which causes a whole 'nother set of issues. I know that there has to be a lot of frozen/broken water mains now, but we won't know which ones until the thaw. But, THEN, there won't be water, because the breaks have to be fixed. And, it's not like people have piles of money laying around to fix their broken pipes. . . . all because a certain group of people wanted to manipulate the market for personal gain.

Might be a good time to invest in an emergency generator, if you don't already have one. It takes a stretch of extremely cold weather to freeze the water mains. Around here they are buried at least 6 feet down and the frost seldom gets that deep. Sure, it happens, but usually only when there is no snow cover for insulation.

 

[Sierra1]

. . . . The cities asked people to keep a trickle of water flowing to prevent freezing and did something on not charging for the added consumption. . . .

The power issue is state wide, but it varies on what issues people are having. Some have been out for days, others. . . . no loss at all. I'm in the middle. On for 40 minutes, off for 30. But when the power goes off, so does the water companies' pumps. I assume that's where the frozen pipes are. I always drip mine when it get cold. Starting Monday morning, there was a visible decrease in pressure/flow. By Tuesday morning, nothing coming out of the faucet. I'm hoping that my lines had little enough water in them to freeze. But, if the supplier can't get the water to me. . . . .

 

[Checkswrecks]

Just bought a new EV so here's a bit of bump on the thread.

We're hitting the knee of the EV acceptance curve right now on simple economics because most people just want cheap transportation. With Chevy cleaning house for the new version people can now buy a new left-over 2020 Chevy Bolt cheap and charge it at home at night on a reduced energy plan for peanuts and never need to buy gas or have an oil change. I teach EV firefighting so picked one up for a whopping $20,100 ($40k sticker) as a company show&tell and personal errands car and since it's 201 hp with all the weight beneath your feet it's fast and handles flat like a go-cart. Still have the Transit van for hauling & true long distance at 17 mpg.

Most new EVs have 250 mile range as a standard goal, so more than 4-5 hours driving then do an 80% charge in about an hour when you need a break anyway. EVs aren't ready for the wide open spaces of the mid-west but even there it's amazing how many chargers will chow up on the Chargepoint or SEMA apps. In addition to the less money to run an EV even if using public chargers, a AAA study says maintenance cost is 20% less but New York City has found their EV fleet actually costs 80% less in maintenance than the ICE fleet.

The Bolt is my second EV and recently drove a new VW ID.4 SUV that is selling for the same price as a comparably sized Ford Edge and Chevy Equinox, and it's slightly bigger than the current RAV4. I've driven all the Tesla models and at $39,900, VW's going to kick Tesla's ass with this thing. btw - Whether you agree with whether it should be offered or not (I think we are past needing it) there's a $7,500 tax credit off of that $39,900 for the first 200,000 to be built which drops the price to that of a similarly well-appointed Mazda or Subaru.

Gotta re-roof the house this summer so probably putting solar panels on that will make running the car essentially cost nothing but occasional tires.

This article has some ICE-EV comparative numbers:
https://www.ashevilledailyplanet.com/opinion/3098-4-reasons-conservatives-should-embrace-electric-cars-

 

[Checkswrecks]

Papa Joe was at Ford a couple of days ago driving the electric e150 pickup and they finally announced it yesterday so am bumping the thread.

Here in the US the e150 is starting at $39,974 which is LESS than the list on a Chevy Bolt or Hyundai Kona! Take off the $7,500 Federal tax credit they are now trying to increase to $10k and we'd be at the cost of our Subaru Forester, then take off the State EV tax credits which go from another $750-$2,500. Add some options and the price will go back up but those are not yet defined.

So I put down a $100 deposit on one of the e150s for delivery next year. The real reason for doing the deposit now is that after the first 200,000 vehicles (iirc) is when the tax credits disappear, so getting an early reservation number gives ME the ability to have the deduction when I finally decide to get the truck or not. If I don't like what I see as we get closer the deposit is refundable, unlike for Tesla.

With respect to setting up a charger at home, I know that to have an electrician do it would be $2k and my State would allow me to deduct about a quarter of that. I'm cheap and will probably someday put in the 240V service myself with a neighbor inspecting and signing it off for good beer so will probably have spent about as much as the tax deduction. Till then I've been doing fine just using the 110V and occasionally a fast charger when there's been one convenient.

Yes the Bolt EV uses gas fired electricity and e150 will. However, the Bolt's been getting 137 eMPG and it's a less expensive form of energy so that doesn't bother me a bit.

 

[tntmo]

Papa Joe was at Ford a couple of days ago driving the electric e150 pickup and they finally announced it yesterday so am bumping the thread.

Here in the US the e150 is starting at $39,974 which is LESS than the list on a Chevy Bolt or Hyundai Kona! Take off the $7,500 Federal tax credit they are now trying to increase to $10k and we'd be at the cost of our Subaru Forester, then take off the State EV tax credits which go from another $750-$2,500. Add some options and the price will go back up but those are not yet defined.

The Lightning looks pretty promising for the large majority of truck owners who just haul some stuff to the dump, pick up stuff at the Home Depot, help friends move, etc.
For anyone who is doing distance towing it likely won't fit the bill, I'm sure range is dramatically decreased while towing and imagine trying to get into a charging station with a trailer?
That "frunk" looks pretty useful. I'm really glad to see Ford jump into the truck market....especially before the others (Rivian and Tesla).

That said, the tax credits aren't much good if you are regularly getting a tax refund. I payed in this year, so it would have been useful for me.

 

[EricV]

I went and looked at the Ford web site. Is it just me? Where are the trucks!? All I see in the F150 electric line up is mini-vans with short beds. What happened to 8' beds and cab-plus or extended cab trucks that still had decent beds of at least 6.5'. I thought the bed on my '05 F150 regular cab was a bit short sometimes and it was 6.5'.

edit - And really, $50k premium, ($91k!!), for the platinum version fully pimped out, which gets you different wheels, better sound system, better seats and some trim differences along with the extended range battery as standard. That's Edie Bauer scam levels X10 there.

 

[Tenman]

IDK. Getting the 1st run on a vehicle can be tricky sometimes

 

[bigbob]

Most new EVs have 250 mile range as a standard goal, so more than 4-5 hours driving then do an 80% charge in about an hour when you need a break anyway. EVs aren't ready for the wide open spaces of the mid-west but even there it's amazing how many chargers will chow up on the Chargepoint or SEMA apps. In addition to the less money to run an EV even if using public chargers, a AAA study says maintenance cost is 20% less but New York City has found their EV fleet actually costs 80% less in maintenance than the ICE fleet.
-[/URL]

Just curious what that middle of nowhere fast charge costs? 80% so call it 200 miles worth. 30 mpg gas is 7 gallons at $3/gallon or $21.

 

[Sierra1]

To "me", realistically, EVs are more for daily commuters, than cross country cruisers. With the current level of technology. 250-300mi ranges are great for back-n-forth to work. Depending on your work commute, you never even get close to the range limits. And, if it's still at 1/2 charge or so, 110v for 8-12 hours, will be plenty enough to return to a full charge. Which would eliminate the need for the high dollar 240v charging system.

Now, if they get the ranges up around 500mi, and get fast charging stations installed at all the Wal-Marts, restaurants, motels, etc. . . . then they could be viable for cross country treks. Until then, people are going to have to keep an internal combustion vehicle (ICV).

I have nothing against EVs, and wouldn't mind having one, but . . . . the price is going to have to get lower. And, just like having a motorcycle, it's not realistic for it to be your only transportation. That being said, you could have an EV as your only transportation. . . . if you were willing to rent an ICV for extended range trips.

 

[tallpaul]

Also consider the improvement in electrical infrastructure that's needed. Certainly in the UK we currently wouldn't have the physical capacity to recharge a country full of EVs, assuming you could have the space to plug them in. Our power generation grid wouldn't manage it, especially if they are moving away from fossil to green sources. Unless it gets very breezy at night to power the wind turbines you could find yourself with a flat battery in the morning!

 

[Checkswrecks]

tntmo - A regular day for me has a roughly 150-180 mile loop so the range works and ymmv.
Agreed about a trailer killing the range but most of the trailering will be somewhat local for my daughter to take her horse to events.
I can use the deduction for the business. Since retiring I created a class and called Practical EV Firefighting that I sell to county governments.

Eric - The 6.5 ft bed works for me and I get work trucks closer to base price, not pimped out showboats.

Tenman - Yup, first year vehicles find the problems but Rivian has been running electric F150s for years and working with Ford on development of this one. Ford also is getting the battery teething out with the Mach-E. I'll be listening to see how others are getting along.

BigBob - Cost of a charge commercially - I just used one of the most expensive chargers around to put about 150 miles (40-ish kW) in the Bolt and it cost me $2.38.

tallpaul - Obviously the world moving to EVs is not an overnight change and there will still be ICE vehicles for a long time.

fwiw - Electric motorcycles are a blast on a twisty road with all the instant torque, but for highway & other trips they are boring, too small, and the range sucks.

 

[AVGeek]

I briefly had a job last year driving prototype vehicles, and spent a shift in the Mustang Mach-E. I wound up making the proscribed charging stop one loop early in the shift, so experienced charge anxiety as I was getting close to the end. It was my first real experience in an electric vehicle, and the overall driving experience was positive (although there were a few ergonomic issues I had with the vehicle, and I'm not sure if those were corrected). At the time, we had four of the Mach-Es in the test fleet, and my major concern was the not ready for prime time nature of our infrastructure here. As part of the test, we were required to use a specific station, and it only had a single charging kiosk. With 4 vehicles and an average recharge time of 45 minutes each, you could conceivably be stuck at a charger for a significant period of time as demand increases.

I am also concerned about how dirty electricity production still is here in the US, not to mention the increase in demand for lithium, which requires mining. While that will be a boon for Nevada (we reportedly have some the biggest reserves of lithium in the world here), there will be a pushback from the environmental community given how its currently mined (although there are "greener" methods that could be implemented).

 

[PhilPhilippines]

I briefly had a job last year driving prototype vehicles, and spent a shift in the Mustang Mach-E. I wound up making the proscribed charging stop one loop early in the shift, so experienced charge anxiety as I was getting close to the end. It was my first real experience in an electric vehicle, and the overall driving experience was positive (although there were a few ergonomic issues I had with the vehicle, and I'm not sure if those were corrected). At the time, we had four of the Mach-Es in the test fleet, and my major concern was the not ready for prime time nature of our infrastructure here. As part of the test, we were required to use a specific station, and it only had a single charging kiosk. With 4 vehicles and an average recharge time of 45 minutes each, you could conceivably be stuck at a charger for a significant period of time as demand increases.

I am also concerned about how dirty electricity production still is here in the US, not to mention the increase in demand for lithium, which requires mining. While that will be a boon for Nevada (we reportedly have some the biggest reserves of lithium in the world here), there will be a pushback from the environmental community given how its currently mined (although there are "greener" methods that could be implemented).

There is compressed air energy storage. Germany has it since 1980 and so does the US since 1990. I think that a diversification of infrastructure to cope with the needs is going to be the only option and storage is a key component.

Musky uses Lithium in his cars and hydrogen in his rockets.

 

[regder]

For those interested, Out Of Spec Motoring on youtube does a lot of EV road trips and is very honest about the limitations and frustrations of the current non Tesla charging grid. Seems to be a bit of a shit show

 

[Sierra1]

. . . . and hydrogen in his rockets.

Speaking of which. . . . hydrogen would be another option for vehicles. Honda was testing a car several years back, but I haven't anything recent.

 

[EricV]

Hydrogen is a sticky wicket. The safest storage medium is solid, but the easiest to transfer and use by the vehicle is liquid/compressed gas. But holy cow, you've seen the idiots at gas stations, how quickly would they blow up the station with something as flammable as liquid/compressed gas hydrogen? You would need seriously idiot proof filling stations, which mostly would mean a very well trained attendant or automated to the point where it just couldn't work unless it was done correctly.

Funny side note, hydrogen is one of the by-products of a desalination plant. Saudia Arabia has more desalination plants than anywhere else in the world, and a stockpile of hydrogen. Of course, they also have a serious toxic brine issue going on too.

At some point, we may figure out home fuel cells for production of electricity and that will help eliminate the national power grid, first easing up on the strain, then allowing it to go away. BUT, and it's a big but, what fuel will be used for the home fuel cells? The 'easy' fuel is... you guessed it, fossil fuels like LNG and Propane. The more exotic is solid hydrogen. Then there is modular green ammonia and there is some big money betting on that right now as the Next Thing™.

 

[Sierra1]

. . . . But holy cow, you've seen the idiots at gas stations, how quickly would they blow up the station with something as flammable as liquid/compressed gas hydrogen? You would need seriously idiot proof filling stations, . . . .

Yup. The video I watched spoke about how great it was, and this, and that, and the whole time that is what I was thinking. Gonna be hard to idiot proof that.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Honda and Toyota tried to push hydrogen for 10+ years and it works well for some stationary uses but is not cost competitive in cars.

Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles are technically a hybrid, in that they use an electric motor and battery. It's just that the battery is small and charged by hydrogen being converted to electricity in the fuel cell. Teaching firefighters, when I put up a hydrogen fuel cell slide and mention the storage cylinders are 3-10,000 psi, they invariably stare shell-shocked. A firefighter's basic tool is water and water can cool the relief valve, leading to a BLEVE explosion and in the best case hydrogen burns clear so is invisible. Most firefighters have been taught about hydrogen fires in training and they are clearly not fans of millions of HP cylinders in traffic. btw - There've been at least two filling station fires in the US & Norway which were pretty spectacular.

Both Honda and Toyota finally realized they made a bad bet, are dropping hydrogen, and racing to catch up to the EV market. Honda is buying Ultium batteries from GM till they can get their own production ramped up and Toyota is coming out with two new EVs later this year.

 

[Checkswrecks]

Fascinating way to reduce drag ROUGHLY 70% to go after the land speed record!!!
I wonder how long till we see this on the race circuit?

White Motorcycle Concepts’ WMC250EV Aims for New Land Speed Record

White Motorcycle Concepts has designed the new WMC250EV to challenge the Voxan Wattman for the electric land speed record using innovative aerodynamics.

www.cycleworld.com