Do You Trail Brake?

gunner

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Do you trail brake? When I first read about this technique I thought it was strictly for track use but recently I started using it on the street and it has improved my cornering.



Here are a couple of more good videos:


 
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Kyle_E

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On the S10 I do. I find the bigger motor and heavier weight than I am used to. I find I don't like the way it feels in corners while on the brakes. So I'm setting up my corners up more. I can't get away with my sloppy riding that I could with a lighter smaller bike. Also a bit of having 40,000 miles on one bike and 3000 on the other.
 

~TABASCO~

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YES..... For 35 years.
 

fac191

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Sure, when the situation calls for it.

Less so on dirt
Seems to me you guys in the States ride very differently to us over the pond. We are taught to roll on the gas and not freewheel around a corner and it feels much better. And you get better traction that way. Also bearing in mind the fabulous linked brakes on the S10 i cant see how you can set yourself up any better. Or am i missing something here ?
 

jeckyll

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Seems to me you guys in the States ride very differently to us over the pond. We are taught to roll on the gas and not freewheel around a corner and it feels much better. And you get better traction that way. Also bearing in mind the fabulous linked brakes on the S10 i cant see how you can set yourself up any better. Or am i missing something here ?
Different kind of approach.

You can get all your breaking done in a straight line, turn in and then roll on. Works great.

Sometimes you break and realize that it'd be good to scrub off a bit of additional speed, so as you add lean angle you let of brake, but you continue to slow and release brake as you add lean, setup for the apex and then roll on, letting weight shift towards the rear tire. The compressed front suspension and steeper head angle helps with turn in.

As far as linked brakes go, I tend to add more rear than the linking does, so I do use my foot to modulate the rear for additional braking, especially loaded for longer trips. Trail braking doesn't change significantly with linked brakes, front suspension compresses when you brake, making for a steeper head angle, and releases when you get off the brake and onto the gas, loading up the rear. Locked brakes change none of that...

You have 100 "points of traction". You can use all of it for braking, you can use all of it for turning, you can use some of it for braking while using some for turning. Pretty sure physics work the same on both sides of the ocean :)

Other people, professionals, probably exlpain it much better: https://www.cycleworld.com/2014/05/28/the-brake-light-initiative-treatise-on-motorcycle-control-using-your-braking-skills/

Edit: and I'm not in the states ;)
 

gunner

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Seems to me you guys in the States ride very differently to us over the pond. We are taught to roll on the gas and not freewheel around a corner and it feels much better. And you get better traction that way. Also bearing in mind the fabulous linked brakes on the S10 i cant see how you can set yourself up any better. Or am i missing something here ?
The Motorcycle Safety Foundations teaches "Slow, Look, Lean and Roll" to negotiate a corner; slow and set your speed before entering the corner, look through the corner, lean the bike in, keep a constant throttle until past the apex, and then roll on the throttle as you exit the corner. Nothing is taught about trailing the front brake.

This was the conventional wisdom until around 2003.

"Freddie Spencer, founder of the Freddie Spencer's High Performance Riding School, as well as Nick Ienatsch, author of the 2003 book Sport Riding Techniques and chief instructor of Yamaha Champions Riding School, say trail braking should be used in nearly every corner as a means to help the motorcycle change direction, and that trail braking gives the rider more control and significantly increases rider safety. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

Even today, this concept is not widely taught because may folks believe this is strictly a technique for the track.

I asked the question because many riders like me who learned to ride in the 1970's may not have heard of this technique and may want to give it a try. :cool:
 

jeckyll

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The Motorcycle Safety Foundations teaches "Slow, Look, Lean and Roll" to negotiate a corner; slow and set your speed before entering the corner, look through the corner, lean the bike in, keep a constant throttle until past the apex, and then roll on the throttle as you exit the corner. Nothing is taught about trailing the front brake.

This was the conventional wisdom until around 2003.

"Freddie Spencer, founder of the Freddie Spencer's High Performance Riding School, as well as Nick Ienatsch, author of the 2003 book Sport Riding Techniques and chief instructor of Yamaha Champions Riding School, say trail braking should be used in nearly every corner as a means to help the motorcycle change direction, and that trail braking gives the rider more control and significantly increases rider safety. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_braking

Even today, this concept is not widely taught because may folks believe this is strictly a technique for the track.

I asked the question because many riders like me who learned to ride in the 1970's may not have heard of this technique and may want to give it a try. :cool:
I think the key is to practice this in a controlled situation. Most important is a very smooth application and release of brake, if ham-fisted, things will turn out poorly.

Maybe a big empty parking lot, break for the turn and maintain some slight brake pressure as you lean in to feel the effect. Go just fast enough that the bike is stable mid corner.

Knowing how to apply the brake for longer and be able to scrub off more speed may just keep you from running into oncoming traffic if you enter a turn too quickly or enter one that surprises you by tightening. If someone is the perfect rider that always sets up exactly right with the perfect corner entry speed, not an issue of course :)
 

Jlq1969

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In an unknown curve, or known, but not knowing if there is oil or Fuel, I prefer to enter a curve in a controlled manner. If I had to rescue something from the trail breaking, it is to enter the curve with the brakes pressed, more or less but pressed, to avoid a slap In the breake lever. in the slow motion, you can see that when he gets scared, he slap the brake lever, probably more than necessary
After watching this video, I took the curves more calmly
 
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ballisticexchris

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Maybe....apparently what I had been taught/told, is not trail braking. But....since I DO brake in corners/curves....and haven't crashed....whatever I'm doing is working.
Then we both are. That's more how I ride. And sometimes I need to apply an ever so slight touch of the brakes.
Yes you and me both!! I had heard of trail braking into paved corners for years and assumed it was the same thing as "brake sliding" with the rear brake off road only without the slide.

Without ever realizing it I have been both trail braking with front brake and using rear brake to control my street bikes in the corners for most of my riding life. OTOH I'm not aggressively fast. To get a true sense of trail braking simply pop your bike in neutral at the top of a mountain and come down using only your brakes. You will be surprised how much you miss the throttle and engine braking to control the bike into the corners. .
 

yoyo

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As already said, we seem to ride differently in the UK, set the speed when approaching a curve, use the limit point (also known as vanishing point) to assess how tight the curve is, apply throttle to help pull the bike through the curve, using the correct hear matched to the speed means you can roll off the throttle to slow down if the curve tightens. If something happens that means you need to brake then gently apply the rear brake to scrub off speed.

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ballisticexchris

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In an unknown curve, or known, but not knowing if there is oil or Fuel, I prefer to enter a curve in a controlled manner. If I had to rescue something from the trail breaking, it is to enter the curve with the brakes pressed, more or less pressed, to avoid a slap
After watching this video, I took the curves more calmly
Ohh my gosh!! Horrible. IMO, those guys were flying on that road. BTW he did not only survive because the fire department being there. It was pure luck he is alive!! Head on collisions with a truck and motorcycle almost always end up in death.

Thank you for the reminder.
 

jeckyll

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As already said, we seem to ride differently in the UK, set the speed when approaching a curve, use the limit point (also known as vanishing point) to assess how tight the curve is, apply throttle to help pull the bike through the curve, using the correct hear matched to the speed means you can roll off the throttle to slow down if the curve tightens. If something happens that means you need to brake then gently apply the rear brake to scrub off speed.

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I'm going to assume that you don't speak for everyone in the UK (if I may).

I bet there are plenty of people there who
1. know how to trail brake
2. utilize it when appropriate

As riders our skills are like 'tools'. We get to choose which tool to use based on the situation. Some folks have a different or more extensive set.

My suggestion is to learn how to do something, get to a point where the skill is mastered well enough so it can be deployed should it be required.

:)
 

steve68steve

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Maybe....apparently what I had been taught/told, is not trail braking. But....since I DO brake in corners/curves....and haven't crashed....whatever I'm doing is working.
+1.

When I took the MSC class, I got it in my head that all braking had to take place with the bike vertical. I was scared to use the brakes leaned over and ran wide a few times because of it.
Then I read an article about how much traction is available and started tentatively braking when leaned. Now many years later, I can't believe I ever rode wthout braking leaned over.

Yes, it's not a good idea to grab a handful of brakes while leaned way over with marginal tires or in horrible conditions. But who does that?

In normal riding with good tires on modern roads in reasonable conditions, there is A LOT of traction left when leaned over. If you brake like you're supposed to (start light and progressively increase squeeze), you'll probably come to a stop before you reach the traction limit... or the front will start doing stuff that causes you to back off a little.

I think this idea of braking when leaned being some sort of advanced, dangerous, technique only available on closed tracks or to 10/10 racers has probably killed more than a few riders who had plenty of stop available to avoid disaster, but they'd been trained to avoid using it.

Practice!!
 

VPS1

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Yes, that habit is not going away anytime soon!


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WJBertrand

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Seems to me you guys in the States ride very differently to us over the pond. We are taught to roll on the gas and not freewheel around a corner and it feels much better. And you get better traction that way. Also bearing in mind the fabulous linked brakes on the S10 i cant see how you can set yourself up any better. Or am i missing something here ?
There’s no freewheeling when doing trail braking properly. You roll off the throttle as you apply brakes going into the turn proportionately and then roll on the throttle as you smoothly release the brakes coming out of the corner. The bike is transitioning from braking to throttle at all times.

To answer the OPs question, yes, I use trail braking to tighten up my line both when riding aggressively or if I’ve misjudged the sharpness of the corner for some reason. I learned the technique from my Friend Lee Parks, who conducts Advanced Riding Clinics all over the country.


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