Clutch problem... Didn't expect this...

cosmic

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Let's make it clear... I'm mechanically disabled for everything basically, except maybe oil/filter swap, but I'm really sensitive when it comes to noises, vibrations...

Long story short...

I had problems shifting into lower gears, like most of us, but one of this times, simple greasing was not enough.
20kkm service... My dealer replaced oil/filter with a Motul V300 10-40W.
Little after I felt strange vibes speeding up from zero. Kind of like you almost stalled it but got away. Hm... Shifting was still crappy.
Soon after I went to give it a quick wash. I put it on the stand and kicked in the first gear to spin the wheel a little so I could clean it with hp. To my surprise i found out that the wheel is spinning with the clutch fully engaged. When I say spinning I mean really fast.
What the hell... Then i start realizing other issues. Shifting into first was chunkier then usual, and I could felt that my precious wanted to move slightly ahead. Damn...

I reported it to my dealer, but I still decided to do the oncoming 3000km trip. I had hotels booked and I couldn't open it for check up at that instant.
Nothing really happened on the trip. Same vibes, same shifting issue. No clutch slipping whatsoever.
Now that I'm out of country for the work, I left it with my trusty dealer.
And this is what they found.









It's not that I don't trust them, I just trust your expertise more.

Info I've got just hours ago, is that the plates are not consumed but they are "dry"... Carbonized i guess they said.
They suggested to replace them.
It's hard to judge from this pics, but still... Tell me what you think...

Possible causes are two!

1.



I was told that this inner part of the clutch was so dry that was not releasing the clutch properly, though I never felt it.
Hp washer... My favorite...
Is it possible?? Hm...

2.

One of my" trusted" tuners replaced all my rubber hoses for the steel ones...
My dealer found out this...



Was loose...

They checked the system and...



Found Traces of air in it. According to them, that could also cause the trouble.
Really??

Now, he told me to stay put till tomorrow morning... He will try to do something with the plates... Didn't want to tell me what... What could it be?

Any body with a similar problem?

Anyway, I'll order new set from Riders Discount. Just in case, and I will replace them on next oil change.
EBC is the brand... Are they good to go?

Thanks in advance for your help.




©
 

Karson

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If there was air in the line, you would have more than likely felt a difference in lever pull (or soon thereafter).

No difference in clutch feel since those new lines?

That's as far as my first hand experience went from swapping out to the long line kit, all ears to hear what others say/think...
 

longride

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With the air in the system, the clutch was not fully releasing, which is why the shifting got more difficult. If you were slipping the clutch a fair amount like on a dirt ride, it will get very hot and glaze the friction disks and then they get slick and won't grip the steel plates. All they will try is sanding the glaze off the friction disks and see if it helps. If that doesn't work, replacement would be necessary.
 

Wanderer

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Howdy,
I'd guess that when the line for the clutch was replaced it was not bled completely. Hydraulic clutches are very sensitive to the condition of their fluid from initial filling and proper bleeding to regular changes, every two years. The slave cylinder lives on the motor and gets very HOT which would exasperate the situation of having air in the line. ;D
Later,
Norm
 

jit600cc

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longride said:
With the air in the system, the clutch was not fully releasing, ...
Maybee me completely stupid, but how could air act as a spring and prevent clutch from releasing? The hydraulic circuit should be open when the lever is released, no?

Light up my mind please... :question:

Jimmy
 

Wanderer

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Hi,
Me again, air is a gas and can be compressed, brake fluid is a liquid and cannot be compressed, so the air compressing then uncompressing acts like a spring, think air assisted front forks or shocks. Add some heat and the gas wants to expand making the situation worst. Hope this helps. :)
Later,
Norm
 

pgeller

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I see nothing wrong with that clutch. Some bluing of the steel plates is normal, particularly if you carry large loads, feather the clutch, weigh a ton, etc. Likewise the friction disks can get a bot glazed but that will only make it slip, not drag. Coarse shifting can be a result of the clutch not fully releasing, and most often that is caused by air in the hydraulic line between the master and slave cylinders. Changing the line and not fully bleeding the air will exhibit this problem. Learn how to properly bleed the circuit and it will probably work just fine.

BTW, jit600c asked about air in the system. Air that is in the circuit between the master and slave cannot work it's way up the fluid and escape. Because it is more compressible than the hydraulic fluid, it does behave as a spring and decouples the master-to-slave connection.

pg
DD
 

cosmic

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Thanks folks for your input. I guess my dealer is not bad at all.
Anyway, this oil was inside for approx 4000km (2500mls)and it was smelling on burned plates. So something was going on.
I was thinking about those vibes I felt... Could it be because of slightly damaged pressure plates. Is that the correct term?
They didn't told me nothing about that...

Btw, i didn't changed the lines. An "experienced" tuner did. I will pay him a visit.

Lesson learned... I have to put to use that ZX1 extra lube I bought for this kind of things.

©
 

snakebitten

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Can't guarantee it, but after they get the air out and dress up the plates a little, I bet it's good as new.

If you do buy new plates, I personally would stick with OEM.

And since clutch plates are "Wear" items and not expensive, I would have no qualms replacing them anyways.
 

Barrel

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cosmic said:
Soon after I went to give it a quick wash. I put it on the stand and kicked in the first gear to spin the wheel a little so I could clean it with hp. To my surprise i found out that the wheel is spinning with the clutch fully engaged. When I say spinning I mean really fast.

©
Good day

Just to let you know that my XTZ does the same and since pretty much the beginning....I have now 36,000 miles / 60,000km and still does it even after bleeding the system.....especially after riding for a while.......I checked some friends with XTZs and some of their bikes did the same too....one of our mechanic who has a XTZ even diassembled one of the clutch completely, clean all the plates......ect......still does it after warming up.....so I do not worry anymore about it and I believe that this portion is normal for this disign .......not perfect but overall ride great...

all the best!

Cheers
 

OldRider

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jit600cc said:
Maybee me completely stupid, but how could air act as a spring and prevent clutch from releasing? The hydraulic circuit should be open when the lever is released, no?

Light up my mind please... :question:

Jimmy
Air isn't going to keep the clutch from releasing, it's going to keep it from fully disengaging. A little air and it drags a little, a little more air and it drags a lot and a lot of air and it doesn't disengage at all, just compresses the air.
 

Combo

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OldRider said:
Air isn't going to keep the clutch from releasing, it's going to keep it from fully disengaging. A little air and it drags a little, a little more air and it drags a lot and a lot of air and it doesn't disengage at all, just compresses the air.
Yep ::008::
 

88millimeter

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If the plates were dry did you soak them in oil overnight? I had to do this to my R1 as i found them almost bone dry. After the clutch engagement was smoother.
 

troll

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RonH said:
I always wonder how in the world possible for clutch plates to be dry that are living in oil 100% of their lives? I don't think. Problems a lot of time can be tracked back to some previous work. Looks like the lines replaced are a good place to start.
::008:: I'm with you RonH, and I would add.... imagine the friction of a partially releasing clutch (due to air in the line) while at a stop with the bike in gear. probably where the heat on the plates came from. ::017::
 

XRAnimal

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At about 10k miles, my clutch lever got a bit "soft" and the bike wanted to creep a when engaging 1st gear. Did a clutch bleed, instantly burped some air. All is good after the bleed. :)
 

cosmic

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Update...

My buddy in the workshop left the plates to soak in the new oil overnight. Put everything back, and changed Motul, wich did exactly 1865mls, for Yamalube 10-40 fully synthetic. The same one I used all along. After bleeding and greasing the lever base, he assured me that shifting is smoother, but the drag is still present.
We will keep an eye on it for the next 4000mls, till the scheduled oil change, by using the latest technology available. That would be taking the oil sample and smell it. :)
It would be nice if someone with same drag issue, (or without) could report back if they noticed the smelly oil. How is this contamination affecting the oil performance?
The end story is, I threw 100 bucks of top notch oil for 85 bucks of good oil, to figure out that my clutch line was not bleeded out correctly, and that I suck in maintenance. The rest they put on diagnosis. In other words free. I love my stealer.

©
 

cosmic

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300 Dolores for the kit of clutch plates here in Croatia. They are most def high on something. What do you pat for the same thing??
I'm definitely acquaring the EBC kit.

©
 

OldRider

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A lot of times you can run a gallon of fluid through the clutch system trying to bleed all the air out and never get the job done. The best way is to put some pipe tape around the threads on the bleeder valve so you don't suck any air around it and suck the fluid out the bottom with a vacuum pump. I've seen people spend an hour pumping the system and get no where and a vacuum pump gets the air out in ten seconds.

http://www.amazon.com/Mityvac-MV8000-Automotive-Test-Bleeding/dp/B00265M9SS/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1380460396&sr=1-1&keywords=mighty+vac+brake+bleeder
 

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