Buying final gear gaskets in bulk

Wheelin

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Hi All -

I recognize that there are multiple posts of oil changes (ad nauseum), but my question specifically deals with buying the final gear gaskets are in bulk over the Internet, if that’s possible.

For what it’s worth, I’ve already found a link to buy the gasket for the motor oil drain plug (https://www.ebay.com/itm/321668073561?_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20160908105057&meid=d37cc5d492314d62a8225d666b64b864&pid=100675&rk=1&rkt=10&sd=321668073561&itm=321668073561&pmt=1&noa=1&pg=2380057&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci:6b64d1aa-b5a6-11eb-8eb0-8add6e167785|parentrq:712929581790aaf5c20a034dffe37530|iid:1), but I have yet to see a link for buying the final gear oil gasket in bulk. Does anybody have any advice in this area?
 

RCinNC

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Just measure the one that's on the final drive drain bolt, and look on someplace like Grainger or McMaster Carr's websites. They both stock tons of different types of hardware, and I don't doubt that you'll find a crush washer on either of those sites that'll work. Grainger seems to be cheaper than McMaster Carr, in my experience. I bought a crush washer recently for my Camry at an Ace Hardware for like $.30; it was actually SAE, but it was close enough to work fine. Though I confess I'm like Don in Lodi, in that I'm at 80,000 miles and I still haven't changed the original final drive drain bolt crush washer. I did buy a new OEM one, but just haven't bothered to put it on yet.

In any event, the final drive oil change interval is supposed to be every 19,000 miles...how many crush washers do you really need over the course of the life of the bike? Seems like buying in bulk might be overkill, unless you have a lot of friends who need them too.
 

Wheelin

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95,000 miles, still on the original gaskets.
I guess there is some benefit to NOT following the directions on the owners manual! Please don’t think I’m being flippant, either. I guess what I’m trying to say is that you may have a greater benefit of experience to know that the gaskets last longer than what the manual indicates.
 

EricV

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There are real crush washers and there are copper and aluminum washers. Both work fine. The real crush washers are hollow and 'crush' only once. funny thing, they still seal fine afterward for multiple uses... The copper and aluminum washers are there so you don't strip the threads in the case when you over tighten the bolt. Work harden, my ass. Annealing them only makes you feel better. Copper and aluminum washers are still softer than the case. The point is that they give before you damage the threads, again, when you over tighten the bolt. So don't over tighten the fricking bolt already.

You can buy these at any hardware store. ACE, Home Depot, etc.
 

Wheelin

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Just measure the one that's on the final drive drain bolt, and look on someplace like Grainger or McMaster Carr's websites. They both stock tons of different types of hardware, and I don't doubt that you'll find a crush washer on either of those sites that'll work. Grainger seems to be cheaper than McMaster Carr, in my experience. I bought a crush washer recently for my Camry at an Ace Hardware for like $.30; it was actually SAE, but it was close enough to work fine. Though I confess I'm like Don in Lodi, in that I'm at 80,000 miles and I still haven't changed the original final drive drain bolt crush washer. I did buy a new OEM one, but just haven't bothered to put it on yet.

In any event, the final drive oil change interval is supposed to be every 19,000 miles...how many crush washers do you really need over the course of the life of the bike? Seems like buying in bulk might be overkill, unless you have a lot of friends who need them too.
Yeah, I thought about that as well. I DO keep cars and bikes until the wheels fall off, but you make a good point just by thinking more about the math. I’ll likely keep the bike at least until 100,000 miles…maybe longer if she keeps on running strong and not nickel and dime-ing me to death beyond the usual expected maintenance items. Maybe I’m asking because I’m appalled by the price of just one crush washer by a motorcycle retailer. $4? Seriously?! That just doesn’t make any sense to me.

And, having given the matter further thought, my plan is to keep on buying S10s if my current ride ever bites the dust. That’s how much I like the bike. It checks off all the boxes for me…at least in this stage of my life.
 
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Wheelin

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There are real crush washers and there are copper and aluminum washers. Both work fine. The real crush washers are hollow and 'crush' only once. funny thing, they still seal fine afterward for multiple uses... The copper and aluminum washers are there so you don't strip the threads in the case when you over tighten the bolt. Work harden, my ass. Annealing them only makes you feel better. Copper and aluminum washers are still softer than the case. The point is that they give before you damage the threads, again, when you over tighten the bolt. So don't over tighten the fricking bolt already.

You can buy these at any hardware store. ACE, Home Depot, etc.
Regarding the gaskets for the final gear, it’s the rolled metal that I think I may have been focused on too much. Always nice to get your input, Eric. (And as you might have possibly surmised from my past posts, I’m too detail focused and ultra cautious to over tighten anything. I use torque wrenches, as I lack the tactile sensation to “feel” the right torque to apply. )
 

Wheelin

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Those copper gaskets (I call them crush washers) are $7.20 each. Wow. I bought a bag of 50 traditional aluminum crush washers on EBay for $12. that's .24 cents each. Are we talking about the same part? (50x) M14 Aluminum Oil Drain Plug Crush Washer *Fits* Honda Acura 94109-14000 | eBay
i think that the way the seller conveyed the ad was a little misleading. They’re not $7.20 each…they’re $7.20 for a package of 20 copper crush washers for the motor oil drain plugs. But yours sounds like the better deal, regardless…particularly if it’s for the final gear drain plug.
 

Wheelin

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Btw, I probably don’t express my gratitude as often as I should. I’m always grateful to the forum members for their input. You all make me think about my approach every time. I think this forum meets my ideal of how people are supposed to help each other, and I think that’s great! I just wish I had more to contribute in knowledge on my side. But I’m still learning.
 

EricV

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One of the things I have noticed on drain/fill plugs on bikes is that sometimes they come all copper washers, sometimes they come all hollow tube style crush washers and sometimes you get a mix with no real rhyme or reason for it. Either style, in any material, plastic, (yes, they really do make plastic crush washers!), aluminum or copper will do the job of sealing and protecting the threads.

The idea behind crush washers of either style is not really to seal the hole, but rather to save the threads from potential damage. I hear what you're saying @Wheelin about using the torque wrench. However, there is a real potential for over tightening with a torque wrench on these particular applications. Torque specs are for dry threads. But the threads on the drain and fill plugs are lubricated by the very oil going into and out of them. A dry spec torque is much too high for a lubricated thread. Ballpark is 20% less for lubricated threads. I say ballpark because there are too many variables involving size, lubricity of the fluid and contact materials to really give an exact value.

Add to that, most torque wrenches, even very high quality ones, are really only accurate at one point in the range. The standard procedure is to zero the torque wrench accuracy at the middle of the range. Typically, the high end is closer than the low end, where the biggest error is usually found. I've calibrated a lot of torque wrenches when I worked as a machinist in industrial manufacturing. Many riders are using ft/lb torque wrenches for these low torque value fasteners because most of us don't need multiple torque wrenches and just have one for everything. This typically means you are at the bottom of your wrench's range, or sometimes below it, where it's really not that accurate.

Keep in mind that torque values are listed for two primary reasons. Very few applications really need an exact torque. Bearing caps are one example of something that needs an exact torque where over and under can cause serious issues and failure.

Most torque values are for the two primary reasons: So you don't break it off, and so it doesn't fall off. For the drain/fill plugs it's so you don't break it off/strip the threads.

So here is an alternate method to consider in lieu of a torque wrench. Thread the plug back in until it's snug. Now put your wrench on it and tighten 1/8 turn more. You should fell it solidly bottom against the case and then require more effort as you tighten that last small amount. This is enough to ensure it is fully seated against the case and that additional 1/8 turn will be compressing the washer. This method is NOT for a new hollow tube style crush washer, only for flat style or re-used hollow style crush washers.

In wrenching on other people's stuff for money, I would see drain plug washers in various states of use. It was not uncommon on cars that were typically taken to the 'quick lube' type shops to find drain plug crush washers paper thin from multiple over tightenings. Those crush washers saved the oil pan threads during repeated & sometimes excessive over tightening, but end of life happens. If your crush washer is not significantly deformed when you remove the drain/fill plug, it's fine to use again. If you're the one doing the wrenching and you can visibly see that your copper or aluminum crush washers are deformed, you are over tightening the drain/fill plug, regardless of if you were using a torque wrench correctly set to the book value or not.

Sorry for the long missive. That's just my opinion and experience. I wrenched for money for about 12 years. I worked as a production machinist in +/- .0002 tolerance work for 20 years in hydraulic tools. I've also worked as a gunsmith and at a knife manufacturer over the years as well as a handful of job shops seeing all kinds of one off stuff.
 

RCinNC

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Eric's method is what I've always done if I'm threading a steel bolt into an aluminum oil pan. "Just tight enough not to leak" is my goal, and so far, no leaks and no losses of a drain bolt. I do use a torque wrench on lots of stuff like axle nuts or caliper bolts, but for something like a drain bolt, I trust my fingers more than my torque wrench.
 

regder

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I bought a variety pack of copper crush washers off Amazon. I think it's 20 of each in 10 different sizes, about $20 total. Covers me for oil changes and final drive fluid changes, and who knows what else.
 

Wheelin

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One of the things I have noticed on drain/fill plugs on bikes is that sometimes they come all copper washers, sometimes they come all hollow tube style crush washers and sometimes you get a mix with no real rhyme or reason for it. Either style, in any material, plastic, (yes, they really do make plastic crush washers!), aluminum or copper will do the job of sealing and protecting the threads.
Good to know, thanks.

I hear what you're saying @Wheelin about using the torque wrench. However, there is a real potential for over tightening with a torque wrench on these particular applications. Torque specs are for dry threads. But the threads on the drain and fill plugs are lubricated by the very oil going into and out of them. A dry spec torque is much too high for a lubricated thread. Ballpark is 20% less for lubricated threads.

… most torque wrenches, even very high quality ones, are really only accurate at one point in the range. The standard procedure is to zero the torque wrench accuracy at the middle of the range. Typically, the high end is closer than the low end, where the biggest error is usually found. I've calibrated a lot of torque wrenches when I worked as a machinist in industrial manufacturing. Many riders are using ft/lb torque wrenches for these low torque value fasteners because most of us don't need multiple torque wrenches and just have one for everything.
I have 3 torque wrenches, each with a limited range. I somehow intuited that a torque wrench isn’t necessarily accurate at the low end.

Most torque values are for the two primary reasons: So you don't break it off, and so it doesn't fall off. For the drain/fill plugs it's so you don't break it off/strip the threads.
I don’t doubt what you’re saying, but it begs the question why the people who wrote the owners manual would advocate for torque values for the dry scenario or the other reasons you mentioned and not take the wet threaded version into account. I’ll defer to your greater practical experience. I’m just a somewhat talented classically trained singer (among other things) who is trying to save money and also trying to do a good job of turning wrenches. :)

So here is an alternate method to consider in lieu of a torque wrench. Thread the plug back in until it's snug. Now put your wrench on it and tighten 1/8 turn more. You should fell it solidly bottom against the case and then require more effort as you tighten that last small amount. This is enough to ensure it is fully seated against the case and that additional 1/8 turn will be compressing the washer. This method is NOT for a new hollow tube style crush washer, only for flat style or re-used hollow style crush washers.
Will do, thanks!

If your crush washer is not significantly deformed when you remove the drain/fill plug, it's fine to use again. If you're the one doing the wrenching and you can visibly see that your copper or aluminum crush washers are deformed, you are over tightening the drain/fill plug, regardless of if you were using a torque wrench correctly set to the book value or not.
I wasn’t able to tell with a visual, but the leaks I had on past reuse certainly support your statement. Must have been overtightening, despite the torque wrench.

I wrenched for money for about 12 years. I worked as a production machinist in +/- .0002 tolerance work for 20 years in hydraulic tools. I've also worked as a gunsmith and at a knife manufacturer over the years as well as a handful of job shops seeing all kinds of one off stuff.
As a musician, I’ve had to work in several occupations as well—to help pay the bills. One of those was as a technical recruiter, which involves sizing people up through their written word and in person interviews. While I’ve not had the benefit of meeting you in person, I would judge that you know what you’re talking about.;)
 

Wheelin

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I bought a variety pack of copper crush washers off Amazon. I think it's 20 of each in 10 different sizes, about $20 total. Covers me for oil changes and final drive fluid changes, and who knows what else.
I’ll look around on Amazon, thanks!
 
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