brake pads

[hobdayd]

Oldrider, you are correct, the OEMs do have component failures despite all their testing. (Which us far mire midelnand application specific than AM supplurrs).

But they have a feedback loop called warranty and service which AM suppliers do not have.

They also have 100,000s of bikes operating in many different territories and duty cycles with varying rider skills. AM suppliers do not have this depth of knowledge.

This is my last post on this subject because it will just go on and on with no comparative data being offered. Just anecdotes.

Buy and fit what you want.

 

[OldRider]

One of the aftermarket brake manufacturers makes Yamahas pads so I would bet they get a lot of feedback from Yamaha. I have no way of knowing who makes Yamahas brake pads for them, but I wouldn't be surprised to find out it was EBC.

 

[Ramseybella]

As a motorcycle mechanic for 45 years I can tell you that the engineers don't always get it right the first time. Cam chain tensioners along with a lot of starter clutch bearing failures on all brands, spokes breaking for no good reason, thousands of starter button failures on Honda Shadows, Harley cam bearings...........etc, etc, etc I could go on for hours. Engineers getting it wrong the first time is why we have recalls.

Or sneak the solution in on the next generation bike without a recall for the old model..
CCT's have been made for decades why Yam can't make one that does it's job for the life of the chain or bike is beyond me.
Generation one Tenere's that have the (HLNI) High, Low and No idle issue seems to have mysteriously disappeared with the generation two Tenere's!!
What does that suggest to me? A known issue that was kept Hush, Hush and fixed behind closed doors.

 

[Sierra1]

This is my last post on this subject....Buy and fit what you want.

::026:: ) ::001::

 

[Rockhopper]

Finally had a chance to try the pads today.

Honestly, I didn't notice that much of a difference. Maybe I didn't apply brakes hard enough to notice it, but the ABS did kick in several times.

So, given there's not much of a difference, for the next pad change I'll go back to OEM. If it destroys the rotor in the meantime, well, so be it. I'll change the rotor too.

I don't know what those people that claim to have "real" stopping power with the EBCs are doing to their bikes :S

 

[OldRider]

Finally had a chance to try the pads today.

Honestly, I didn't notice that much of a difference. Maybe I didn't apply brakes hard enough to notice it, but the ABS did kick in several times.

So, given there's not much of a difference, for the next pad change I'll go back to OEM. If it destroys the rotor in the meantime, well, so be it. I'll change the rotor too.

I don't know what those people that claim to have "real" stopping power with the EBCs are doing to their bikes :S

Which pads did you put on?

 

[OldRider]

Or sneak the solution in on the next generation bike without a recall for the old model..
CCT's have been made for decades why Yam can't make one that does it's job for the life of the chain or bike is beyond me.
Generation one Tenere's that have the (HLNI) High, Low and No idle issue seems to have mysteriously disappeared with the generation two Tenere's!!
What does that suggest to me? A known issue that was kept Hush, Hush and fixed behind closed doors.

As far as CCT's go when Kawasaki went from their manual tensioners to the automatic type in the late 70's they had a lot of trouble. They were making a cct that worked with something like a sprag bearing around the tensioner shaft that would slip. The replacement was a weird type unit that had two spring loaded wedges that would jam into each other and hold the chain tight. I think Honda gets the award for the best cct's. In my opinion Yamaha really dropped the ball with the starter clutch problem in the 1100 VStar. When you hear an 1100 VStar make a loud jerking sound when you try to start it, the starter clutch bearing is shot and instead of doing a recall on the 1100's and fixing the problem, they just put together a $400 (+ $150 labor) kit to replace the entire starting clutch system. Like I said in an earlier post, I could go on for hours about factory engineering defects.

 

[Rockhopper]

Which pads did you put on?

EBC. I had already bought them when I posted so I'm using them.

 

[Jeff Milleman]

EBC makes the OEM pads for Yamaha , the difference is the OEM have a black back and are organic .

 

[hobdayd]

I know I said I wouldn't post again on this subject but...Rant...

Jeff...are you telling me my ST has EBC rotors and pads fitted from new by Yamaha? What new 0 miles bikes do Yamaha fit EBC rotors or pads to? Just for my own edification...I will go and whip out my pads on my ST and have a look if you tell me they are EBC!

Old man, yes companies have product failures in the field DESPITE the vast resources they throw at product engineering. Their markets, applications and usage very enormously and they have to design to a cost people are willing to pay for a high tech motorcycle. Then they loose replacement AM business to companies that advertise and make claims offering superior performance. However, they rarely show any independant back to back test results to substantiate their claims and here you have to consider not just one element of performance but all aspects - cold, hot, fade, slow decent, laden/unladen, heat transportation to the caliper and fluid, pressure sensitivity, temperature sensitivity, stick/slip, DTV generation, disc wear at different duty cycles, pad wear at different duty cycles, wear rates in slurry, corrision, thermal barrier, noise, refinement ect. These are just a few test criteria for friction couples...I could go on...what about ABS compatibility?

I too suffered with a cam chain tensioner failure on my Hayabusa which lead to a new engine being fitted under warranty. Do you think Suzuki like fitting new engines or having warranty claims! It would be a disaster for them to have high field failure rates.

Just think about the engineering effort that went into developing that new Hayabusa engine and then look at what I paid for that bike new with warranty. Not a lot for the world's fastest bike at the time. (By the way, that was a $0.03 spring failure)! Cost them maybe $4,000! Do you have any idea how difficult springs are to manufacture without defects suitable for <50 PPM failure rate...I do! But they do QA their suppliers to a high standard.

Last time I looked the bike manufacturers did not make huge profits. (Dispute but a good company should be spending 6% of sales on R&D and still make >10% margin). How many bike companies are struggling?

Aftermarket parts pricing contributes to their bottom line to help keep making products I want to buy because they certainly do not make a lot if margin on a new bike sale.

Aftermarket suppliers are leaches. They contribute NOTHING to the new bike development but starve the OE of much needed revenue.

Keep buying your AM parts. I know where my engineering faith lies and I know I want to support the bike manufacturer so they can carry on making bikes I want to buy.

But please, many non expert people read these posts so don't disparage an "expert in the field" with anecdotes. SHOW ME DATA TO CONVINCE ME OF ANY CLAIM YOU MAKE. I am an engineering manager after all working to bring you safe reliable OE products so some AM supplier can ride my 5 year development cycle and make a quick killing from the non-expert in the field guided by "expert" opinion on a forum.

This is definitely my last post on this particular thread because we all have opinions and I am passionate about the merits of SAFETY CRITICAL OE parts vrs AM. This could just rumble on...I don't want to keep banging my head against this particular wall...

And after all folks, what is the real cost difference between OE brake parts and AM parts over 100,000 miles?

 

[Dogdaze]

::026:: ^^^ What he said. The only time I had any success with AM part was EBC HH pads on my VZ1600, that was a beast and heavy without ABS or traction, twin 6 pot rotors up front and single at the rear, I did most of my braking upfront, finally got tired of trying to scrub speed off, so went the HH route, they performed well, but I did not like them, started to eat into my rotors, but as it was heavily customised and I hardly rode it, I thought what the heck! I did try them on my last S10 (EBC semi-met) took them out after 200 miles, I think they are in some box in the garage... OEM for me, I will ride to the level of the parts on the bike and my ability.

 

[SilverBullet]

...are you telling me my ST has EBC rotors and pads fitted from new by Yamaha? What new 0 miles bikes do Yamaha fit EBC rotors or pads to?...

He didn't mention rotors only pads. But since you did, no they are not made by EBC. The rotors are made by Galfer.

Edit: just saw a photo of OEM pads and they are Sumitomo not EBC.

So yes a 0 mile ST comes new from Yamaha with AM pads and rotors. But since fitted from factory they are OEM if you purchase from Yamaha but AM if you purchase direct from Sumitomo or Galfer? As an engineer surely you are aware that probably 90% of OEM parts manufacturers/suppliers also sell under their own brands.

potato-potahtoe

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[SilverBullet]

...And after all folks, what is the real cost difference between OE brake parts and AM parts over 100,000 miles?

I have 95,000 miles on my Tenere and thus far have saved $343 with AM sintered HH pads. I could have saved an additional $24 if I used AM organic pads.

Rotors still fine. Sintered pads do wear the rotors faster, probably not twice as fast though. When needed I'll buy an AM set of 3 rotors for $180. OEM set of 3 is $697.

I have also saved $120 using AM oil filters.

OEM prices used are full list with sales tax as local dealers rarely discount. If you don't want to support an AM leach you wouldn't want to support an on line retailer leach either right? Lol

_

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[OldRider]

I know I said I wouldn't post again on this subject but...Rant...

Jeff...are you telling me my ST has EBC rotors and pads fitted from new by Yamaha? What new 0 miles bikes do Yamaha fit EBC rotors or pads to? Just for my own edification...I will go and whip out my pads on my ST and have a look if you tell me they are EBC!

Old man, yes companies have product failures in the field DESPITE the vast resources they throw at product engineering. Their markets, applications and usage very enormously and they have to design to a cost people are willing to pay for a high tech motorcycle. Then they loose replacement AM business to companies that advertise and make claims offering superior performance. However, they rarely show any independant back to back test results to substantiate their claims and here you have to consider not just one element of performance but all aspects - cold, hot, fade, slow decent, laden/unladen, heat transportation to the caliper and fluid, pressure sensitivity, temperature sensitivity, stick/slip, DTV generation, disc wear at different duty cycles, pad wear at different duty cycles, wear rates in slurry, corrision, thermal barrier, noise, refinement ect. These are just a few test criteria for friction couples...I could go on...what about ABS compatibility?

I too suffered with a cam chain tensioner failure on my Hayabusa which lead to a new engine being fitted under warranty. Do you think Suzuki like fitting new engines or having warranty claims! It would be a disaster for them to have high field failure rates.

Just think about the engineering effort that went into developing that new Hayabusa engine and then look at what I paid for that bike new with warranty. Not a lot for the world's fastest bike at the time. (By the way, that was a $0.03 spring failure)! Cost them maybe $4,000! Do you have any idea how difficult springs are to manufacture without defects suitable for <50 PPM failure rate...I do! But they do QA their suppliers to a high standard.

Last time I looked the bike manufacturers did not make huge profits. (Dispute but a good company should be spending 6% of sales on R&D and still make >10% margin). How many bike companies are struggling?

Aftermarket parts pricing contributes to their bottom line to help keep making products I want to buy because they certainly do not make a lot if margin on a new bike sale.

Aftermarket suppliers are leaches. They contribute NOTHING to the new bike development but starve the OE of much needed revenue.

Keep buying your AM parts. I know where my engineering faith lies and I know I want to support the bike manufacturer so they can carry on making bikes I want to buy.

But please, many non expert people read these posts so don't disparage an "expert in the field" with anecdotes. SHOW ME DATA TO CONVINCE ME OF ANY CLAIM YOU MAKE. I am an engineering manager after all working to bring you safe reliable OE products so some AM supplier can ride my 5 year development cycle and make a quick killing from the non-expert in the field guided by "expert" opinion on a forum.

This is definitely my last post on this particular thread because we all have opinions and I am passionate about the merits of SAFETY CRITICAL OE parts vrs AM. This could just rumble on...I don't want to keep banging my head against this particular wall...

And after all folks, what is the real cost difference between OE brake parts and AM parts over 100,000 miles?

You can't look at a lot of oem parts and tell who made them. Take sprockets for example, a lot of oem sprockets are made by Sunstar, but they don't have Sunstar stamped on them like the AM sprockets do. It is obvious you have a big hard on against AM parts makers so I'll will just drop this right here. Good day.

 

[Sierra1]

The following is personal opinion only. "Back in the day" I believe that after market (AM) parts were almost always of better quality than original equipment (OE). Both cars/trucks and motorcycles last longer now than they ever did. Quality is better than ever. There are 6 cylinders, and some 4 bangers, that are making V8 power from yesteryear; from the factory. The R6 has a 16k redline! Think about the engineering required to do that; and not explode. Sometimes OE can't be improved on. OE no longer is synonymous with inferior/shit. It could be, as suggested, that manufactures are using AM parts as OE. They spend a little more in the beginning to reduce warranty claims which cost parts AND labor. No manufacturer has perfect engineering. They have all had recalls. EBC makes high quality products. But, depending on which pad material you choose, find out what rotor material they recommend for a specific pad. It makes a difference.
::021::

 

[scott123007]

"Back in the day" I believe that after market (AM) parts were almost always of better quality than original equipment (OE). OE no longer is synonymous with inferior/shit.

The R6 has a 16k redline! Think about the engineering required to do that; and not explode.

That is an interesting take, Sierra...
Back "in my day" (I'm 11 years your senior) aftermarket, in many cases, was the necessary evil, and not necessarily superior to OEM. Accessibility, availability, and price, were the calling cards. OEM just did not make the products needed to modify your bike. Plastic fenders, 1/4 turn throttles, jet kits, sissy bars, crash bars, windshields, fairings, pistons larger than .020", performance cams, reasonably priced clutch plates, etc. etc. They were never viewed as being superior, just available. THAT BEING SAID, I totally agree that aftermarket products that were made to UPGRADE your existing OEM parts (suspension, brake lines, brake pads, tires, etc.) were, and still are, all superior for their specific purpose, because OEM items have to be built to a certain spec to provide the best BALANCE of performance, durability, and cost.

That is why I find this thread so amusing, arguing that OEM brake pads are the cats ass. We think nothing of modifying our tires, suspension, engines, handlebars, levers, windshields and Lord knows what else to meet our specific needs, when virtually every item on an OEM machine goes through the same protocol of testing as anything else, but God forbid, you upgrade your brake pads. LOL

Disclaimer: I am strictly talking motorcycles, and Japanese ones at that, because that is what I know.

This may be a little before your time, but if you think the R6 with its optimistic tach (they proved it was 15000 not 16000) is an engineering marvel, go back forty plus years and read up on the Honda RC166. https://petrolicious.com/articles/honda-rc166

 

[ace50]

Do what you want. It's your money, your bike and your life.

Brakes are safety critical...an enormous amount if effort goes into producing a very good system by the OEM. Every part is engineered to work together to achieve perfornance, life and refinement demanded by the market.

I spent a lot of my career engineering those components. I know what effort is required to achieve the end result for an OEM like Yamaha.

As an expert in the subject I give you my unbiased comments. Take it or leave it.

Buy what you want. Fit what you want.

I have expert insight and I know what I will fit to my bikes and cars!

Red flag if I ever saw one. If 'engineers' did a great job, there would be numerous perfect bikes on the road..............I've never been on one.

(BTW, I'm an engineer and mechanic!)

 

[RCinNC]

Well, the verdict is in; Ohlins, Penske, Cogent Dynamics, Racetech, you may as well close up shop. You are leeches on the motorcycle industry.

Jeez.

That whole argument that OEM is better because it's engineered to all work together leaves out an important fact; they're also engineered to meet an acceptable price point. Suzuki isn't going to put an Ohlins quality shock on a V-Strom when they're trying to reach an acceptable price point for that bike. Now, their engineers will try to build a generally acceptable product that functions safely, but that doesn't mean it's a better product than an aftermarket one. There is no way on earth that a stock Super Tenere shock is a superior choice to an aftermarket Ohlins, no matter how many Yamaha engineers contributed to the OEM design. The idea that only a Yamaha engineer can design an acceptable, compatible part is laughable.

And if the alleged OEM part is specced out to an aftermarket manufacturer like Galfer, what makes that part any better than one marketed directly to the public under the Galfer brand? In fact, I might trust an aftermarket manufacturer more than an OEM one, if the manufacturer has an industry wide rep for quality. After all, how do you know that a Galfer branded rotor isn't made at a higher quality than an OEM one? That OEM rotor on your Yamaha may have been specced to a lower standard than a Galfer one, just so they can meet their overall product price. There are a lot of aftermarket manufacturers that are substandard; I'd be very leery of buying a Chinese made rotor from eBay (though some of them are building a good reputation). You can hardly equate EBC and Galfer with a no-name Chinese import.

I'll concede that an engineer's opinion holds more weight than mine, because I'm not an engineer. But you know who does have engineers whose opinion does matter? Galfer. EBC. Ohlins. Penske. And the list of quality aftermarket parts manufacturers goes on and on.

I didn't particularly like EBC pads, mainly because they seemed like they were harder on the rotors than the OEM pads. I didn't notice any real difference in performance, but that could be attributed to the fact that I might not push my bike as hard as some others do. For me, the longevity of the pad and rotor was important, but to someone who pushes their bike hard, the performance of the pad might well be an acceptable trade for decreased rotor life. The OEM pad/rotor combo works better for me personally, but it sure doesn't mean it's better overall.

I'm glad you have expert insight. So do the engineers at places like EBC, Galfer, Penske, Ohlins, etc.

 

[Sierra1]

I give up. I am not for or against OE or AM. I AM SAYING THAT THE PADS AND ROTORS MUST BE COMPATIBLE. You can use semi-metallic pads, and not see any extra wear on your rotor if your using the correct rotor. Rotors that are combined with ceramic pads, will not stand up to semi-metallic. I know this because I used to think that pads are pads; not so.

And yes, I do think that a bike with a 16k, or 15k, red line IS an engineering marvel. The Honda with the 20k redline is too. Actually, ANYTHING that can function at those speeds, and not self-destruct, is an engineering marvel.

I enjoy this forum because most of the members are easygoing and like to BS about bikes. Some members....not so much.

 

[scott123007]

This may be helpful (off EBC's website


Type of Brake Rotor Best Pad To Use

OEM Stainless Steel Any
EBC Stainless Steel X, XC or SBD Series Any
EBC Billet Rotor (front or rear) FA Series Organic Pads or Vee/VLD Pads
EBC (OS and SM Series) EBC X Series Carbon, R Series Sintered, MXS Series Sintered or EPFA Series Sintered
EBC Stainless Steel Rear Brake Rotors (MD Series) Any
EBC Stainless Off Road Series for Moto-X or ATV (MD Series) Any

Composite lightweight rotors (such as carbon fibre, metal matrix, silicone carbide) DO NOT USE any EBC product on these rotors. Tests have shown rotor damage