Brake pad life - what's to be expected

dcstrom

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This is somewhat related to the discussion about pad prices,
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=3437.0
but I think it deserves its own topic.

I'm at 9,200 miles. Thought the rear pads were getting a little thin, been watching them but I hadn't pulled them to check properly. Had I done that I would have replaced them 1000 miles ago. Don't like that bit of metal-to-metal on the outer edge... So that makes 8000 miles out of a set of rear pads. I've never had that little on any bike, and normally I'm wearing out fronts before the rears (fronts are about 1/2 worn currently).

I can only guess that the linked brakes are the culprit - on "normal" bikes I don't use the rear so much. Maybe I need to change my technique? Rear brake first to unlink them, then get on the front and off the rear? That would be the way to do it to get as close to "normal" as possible, right? Not the way I prefer to ride though.

Anyway, not that big a deal. Pads are $22 from Stadium Yamaha

http://www.stadiumyamaha.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=YAM#/Yamaha/SUPER_TENERE_-_XTZ12BL_-_2012/REAR_BRAKE_CALIPER/XTZ12BL_%282012_MOTORCYCLE%29/REAR_BRAKE_CALIPER_%28XTZ12BL_-_2012%29

I'm going to order some fronts while I'm there, $33 per side seems pretty reasonable.

The thing that's more troubling is the amount of wear on the disk. Lots of noticeable grooves, while the front discs are nice and flat. It's hard to see the grooves in the pic, but you can feel them. Not really a worry now, but what's it going to be like at 30,000 miles? New disc time? Should I think about a warranty claim?



 

tenerejack

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

dcstrom said:
This is somewhat related to the discussion about pad prices,
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=3437.0
but I think it deserves its own topic.

I'm at 9,200 miles. Thought the rear pads were getting a little thin, been watching them but I hadn't pulled them to check properly. Had I done that I would have replaced them 1000 miles ago. Don't like that bit of metal-to-metal on the outer edge... So that makes 8000 miles out of a set of rear pads. I've never had that little on any bike, and normally I'm wearing out fronts before the rears (fronts are about 1/2 worn currently).

I can only guess that the linked brakes are the culprit - on "normal" bikes I don't use the rear so much. Maybe I need to change my technique? Rear brake first to unlink them, then get on the front and off the rear? That would be the way to do it to get as close to "normal" as possible, right? Not the way I prefer to ride though.

Anyway, not that big a deal. Pads are $22 from Stadium Yamaha

http://www.stadiumyamaha.com/pages/OemParts?aribrand=YAM#/Yamaha/SUPER_TENERE_-_XTZ12BL_-_2012/REAR_BRAKE_CALIPER/XTZ12BL_%282012_MOTORCYCLE%29/REAR_BRAKE_CALIPER_%28XTZ12BL_-_2012%29

I'm going to order some fronts while I'm there, $33 per side seems pretty reasonable.

The thing that's more troubling is the amount of wear on the disk. Lots of noticeable grooves, while the front discs are nice and flat. It's hard to see the grooves in the pic, but you can feel them. Not really a worry now, but what's it going to be like at 30,000 miles? New disc time? Should I think about a warranty claim?



Your front disc doesn't look all that rough to me then again, I cant see how deep the grooves are w/o running my finger across them. I'm glad you posted this and need to remember to un-link before stopping. Yes, touch down on the rear then squeeze the front. You dont need to hold the rear to maintain the unlinking as far as I can tell. It's difficult at first applying the correct amount of pressure to both front and rear and getting the rear first to unlink but I've gotten used to it but only occasionally. I get lazy w/ the linked brake luxury.
 

Twisties

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

On the RT I just replaced my first (OEM) set of rears a little bit ago... maybe 57k miles. The linking on the RT is much stronger than on the SupaT. On the RT I never apply rear manually, on the SupaT I always do In fact, after riding the RT the SupaT doesn't even seem linked to me. Unless the implementation varies considerably from bike to bike, I would not be inclined to blame linking. I think you should be using both brakes anyway, linking just does it, or some of it, for you. I'm sitting around 7k miles and will have the bike on the stand next week for an oil change and filter. I'll take a good look at my pads then.
 

dcstrom

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

tenerejack said:
Your front disc doesn't look all that rough to me then again, I cant see how deep the grooves are w/o running my finger across them. I'
To clarify - that's the rear disc. Yeah, hard to see the grooves but definitely noticeable when you run a finger over it.
 

EricV

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

DC- do you do a lot of city riding? It does seem a little on the short side for pad wear. You made me go look. :D Pulled the caliper and my rear pads are wearing evenly and looking just fine at 24100 miles. I almost always use both brakes, fwiw.

Pic -

Pic -
 

dcstrom

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

EricV said:
DC- do you do a lot of city riding? It does seem a little on the short side for pad wear. You made me go look. :D Pulled the caliper and my rear pads are wearing evenly and looking just fine at 24100 miles. I almost always use both brakes, fwiw.
Not too much city riding, but I do tend to use the brakes hard at times (just for fun... and practice) which on my other bikes is what causes front pad wear. On this one, I don't have full control of what's going on in the rear, so it seems my hard FRONT braking (which is what I really want) is causing more braking on the rear than I would choose if it was up to me...
 

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

dcstrom said:
Not too much city riding, but I do tend to use the brakes hard at times (just for fun... and practice) which on my other bikes is what causes front pad wear. On this one, I don't have full control of what's going on in the rear, so it seems my hard FRONT braking (which is what I really want) is causing more braking on the rear than I would choose if it was up to me...
Nothing wrong with practice. ::008:: But I do sort of question why you just want front braking? Unless you're in stoppie mode, rear braking effectively adds to the process and will result in shorter stopping distances. We all know about weight transfer under braking, but using both brakes is still the most effective way to stop a bike.
 

dcstrom

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

EricV said:
Nothing wrong with practice. ::008:: But I do sort of question why you just want front braking? Unless you're in stoppie mode, rear braking effectively adds to the process and will result in shorter stopping distances. We all know about weight transfer under braking, but using both brakes is still the most effective way to stop a bike.
Agreed - but the harder you brake with the front, the more weight transfer. That means less stopping power on the rear obviously, and with little weight on it, it's going to lock up easier. SO in that situation I'll just caress the rear brake pedal to keep things steady. Also I'll drag the rear mid-corner if carrying too much speed.

That style of riding is pretty much out the window on the S10 - for one thing the rear won't lock up anyway (except for briefly at low speed), and for another I don't feel like it gets the weight transfer to the front that "normal" bike does. I suspect part of that is the UBS braking on the rear causing it to squat and stay more level?

That would be all well and good if ultimate stopping distances are improved, but I feel like I could brake harder on the V-Strom than the S10. Never measured it though, maybe I should have. Vee's gone now...
 

tenerejack

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

dcstrom said:
To clarify - that's the rear disc. Yeah, hard to see the grooves but definitely noticeable when you run a finger over it.
10-4, I meant to type rear. With only a few thousand on mine I cant see too much wear but I plan to monitor things a bit.
 

EricV

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

dcstrom said:
Agreed - but the harder you brake with the front, the more weight transfer. That means less stopping power on the rear obviously, and with little weight on it, it's going to lock up easier. SO in that situation I'll just caress the rear brake pedal to keep things steady.
I agree with you, to a point. What I see as a mis-statement is that you're losing braking power on the rear. That only happens when the rear locks up, which it doesn't do with the Super Ten, in part due to the linked system and in part due to the ABS. Up to rear wheel lock up or lift off, it's helping to slow you down. There is no down side to using the rear brake.

Classic non-abs max braking story follows: ;)

US-395 between Pendleton and John Day, OR. Very twisty, follows streams most of the way, heavy evergreen forest and deer central. I'm on an '02 FZ-1 and in the groove. I'm coming around a 30 mph marked corner at ~65 mph and as I cross the apex, three deer come out of the stream and into the road, see my headlight and freeze...

I go immediately into threshold braking mode, the front goes down and in my mind, as everything slows w-a-y d--o--w--n I hear the back tire lock, then go silent and the squirrel brain says "it's silent because it's not on the ground any more", and I feel the back of the bike trying really hard to finish swinging around that corner that I'm coming out of. Body english to hold the back end in place, more front brake, bringing the back end up even more...

At about 3 feet off my nose, the deer bolt! I back off on the brake and ease things back down and ride up to the next wide spot in the road for a short cleaning session and to let some of the adrenaline dump from my system. I will always have a crystal clear image in my mind of those deer with the water droplets on their muzzles and wet feet, big doe eyes and black whiskers as I auger in at them.

In that case, I utilized all the back brake possible, but once it was gone, it was all front brake.

On the S10, the back wouldn't have locked up because of the ABS, but it would have been less effective than w/o abs engaged, but weight transfer still is present and the front brake is unaffected by abs, not having crossed the threshold. Would it have still stoppied? I don't know. I estimate I went from 65 to 25 about as fast as mechanically possible. Dry pavement and otherwise perfect conditions.

My thought is just that as long as the rear tire is on the ground, it's going to help slow you down. I get trail braking. That's why the rear brake first disengages the linking. I'm not so sure it stays that way once you start using heavy front brake though. I suspect at some point you over load the check valve or proportioning valve and you return to linked braking mode as the front pressure over rides what ever back brake pressure you have applied.
 

dcstrom

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

EricV said:
I agree with you, to a point. What I see as a mis-statement is that you're losing braking power on the rear. That only happens when the rear locks up, which it doesn't do with the Super Ten, in part due to the linked system and in part due to the ABS. Up to rear wheel lock up or lift off, it's helping to slow you down. There is no down side to using the rear brake.
Yeah, physics is complicated innit? Makes my brain hurt... But what I mean is... when weight transfers to the front, and there is little or no weight on the rear (ie you're on the verge of a stoppie), then the slightest touch of the back brake is going to lock it. On a normal bike. What happens on the S10? Does it just reduce braking power to the rear to the point where there's none or almost none, in order to avoid lockup? OR - and I would SPEW if this was the case - does it reduce power to the front to keep weight on the rear to avoid lockup?

That would explain my feeling that I can't stop as hard on the S10 as I could on the Vee (this is on the same tires too). If that's the way it works, it would mean that Yamaha have dumbed down the brakes so that they are "safe" for most people most of the time but ultimately don't perform as well as they could.

I've been meaning to try them with ABS/TCS off, and see what the difference is. But UBS is still on... so only a partial lobotomy is possible. Or is there a way to switch off UBS as well?

Trevor
 

EricV

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

It's not that smart. It can't reduce braking power because it's just a series of valves and an actuator. Nothing is happening until the wheel sensor shows the wheel stopping, (locking). I can't see any method by which the ECU could alter the front braking force until lock up occurs. This is partly why a really good rider can out break ABS, all things equal, (which they never are on the street). We threshold brake right up to the point before the wheel locks up. The ECU has to wait a fraction of a second longer until it actually does lock up to engage. The current gen of abs is very, very good and very fast to react, but in theory, (if I grok it correctly), it still has to lock up to engage. The differential of the wheel speeds to the other data is needed before ABS engages, then the actuator valve begins to pulse to avoid continued lock up.

I suspect much of what you notice simply has to do with the much lighter VStrom compared to the heavier S10, plus the difference in feel of ABS to non-ABS. ABS brake systems on bike always feel a little 'soft' due to the extra lines and the valve block in the system. There is hydraulic 'give' in the system at the valve block. There has to be for it to work, since hydraulic fluid does not compress.

btw, I spent the last 20 years working in the hydraulic tool industry. I'm not totally clueless, but I'm not always right either.
 

dcstrom

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

EricV said:
btw, I spent the last 20 years working in the hydraulic tool industry. I'm not totally clueless, but I'm not always right either.
Thanks Eric, I appreciate your perspective. Meanwhile I am an expert in guessology :D
 

markjenn

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

I have 7K on mine and very little wear on my rear brake pads. I almost never use the rear brake explicitly, so whatever pad wear I have is from the LBS. I don't know what is causing your premature rear brake pad wear, but I doubt it is the LBS.

- Mark
 

autoteach

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

I let a friend take mine for a spin. He came back and I could smell brake pad, and I could feel heat on the rear (just from a round-the-block run). I said he had his foot on the pedal, he said no. I know the version of this story that I like, and it isn't that the lbs tried to fry my rear brake pads on me.
 

EricV

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

autoteach said:
I let a friend take mine for a spin. He came back and I could smell brake pad, and I could feel heat on the rear (just from a round-the-block run). I said he had his foot on the pedal, he said no. I know the version of this story that I like, and it isn't that the lbs tried to fry my rear brake pads on me.
Sort of reminds me of the kids in high school that would stomp on the brakes and the gas to do longer burn outs. Gee, rear brakes are shot, I wonder why. ::) I would suspect your friend found some loose stuff and gassed it, while holding the front brake lever to maintain more control. Not realizing what the LBS was doing, he just over powered the rear brake with throttle.
 

Don in Lodi

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

My foot brake pedal still rides kinda high, I've got to be careful. And just so I'm clear, ABS works on the front brakes too, right?
 

EricV

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

Don in Lodi said:
My foot brake pedal still rides kinda high, I've got to be careful. And just so I'm clear, ABS works on the front brakes too, right?
Absolutely! Find some gravel and grab a handful to see what it feels like. It will surprise you how well it works and how little disturbance occurs.
 

Don in Lodi

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Re: fast rear brake pad wear

Oh, I know it's a training thing and all, but I just can't force my body to purposefully lock the front brake. That little self preserving part of the brain kicks in, damned lizard. I've played with the rear ABS a bunch, rocky downhills, suddenly deciding to change directions on forest service roads, fun stuff. Real slick. Just knowing the front generally won't slap my ass on the ground if I grab too much makes me feel better.
 
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