14' basket, Barnett spring conversion issues

spam16v

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I had similar issues, I think I might have gotten a Chi-com scam one too. I’ll have to check when I change the gasket. Sh*t.
 
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ballisticexchris

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What's the point of the Barnett? When I updated the clutch basket on my Gen 1 to the Gen II, my dealer also replaced my worn clutch plates using OEM parts. The bike shifted beautifully.
I'm with you!! I was pleasantly surprised how smooth these diaphragm clutches are. The KTM's/Husqvarna's are going to them as well. The clutch actuation is butter smooth and easy to slip all the way down to 3mph. Anything below that point and I start to get a little shaky on the balance.
 

SoDakTraut

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I'm with you!! I was pleasantly surprised how smooth these diaphragm clutches are. The KTM's/Husqvarna's are going to them as well. The clutch actuation is butter smooth and easy to slip all the way down to 3mph. Anything below that point and I start to get a little shaky on the balance.
Diaphragm clutches are cheaper and lighter hence being great for the ktm crowd (more money for ktm, lighter bike for ktm riders).
They (diaphragm springs) have non-linear clamping force on the clutch pack and this is what makes the clutch pull funny and a touch less predictable.
Typical coil springs have a nice, linear relationship between displacement and force (f=ks) whereas diaphragms have some big gay nonlinear parabolic relationship.
As with almost anything motorcycle related it depends on your personal taste. For example my clutch fingers are well trained to a coil spring and so I'm thinking about a Barnett spring plate when I put in the new clutch basket.
 
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ballisticexchris

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The elbow that screws onto the pumps hose.
Diaphragm clutches are cheaper and lighter hence being great for the ktm crowd (more money for ktm, lighter bike for ktm riders).
They (diaphragm springs) have non-linear clamping force on the clutch pack and this is what makes the clutch pull funny and a touch less predictable.
Typical coil springs have a nice, linear relationship between displacement and force (f=ks) whereas diaphragms have some big gay nonlinear parabolic relationship.
As with almost anything motorcycle related it depends on your personal taste. For example my clutch fingers are well trained to a coil spring and so I'm thinking about a Barnett spring plate when I put in the new clutch basket.
That is an unfair and incorrect assumption on your part. The diaphragm clutch is no different (other than having a lighter pull at lever) in actuation or clutch pull. In fact it's very linear and predictable as well as being more compact and maintaining a light clutch actuation. It is lighter but no cheaper to manufacture.


You simply need to practice more on using the clutch. I imagine it's safe to assume you have very little off road experience in slow rock crawling where proper clutch use is important. This is my very first bike with a diaphragm clutch and it's no harder to modulate/actuate than any other clutch pack.

OTOH, by nature of design, the diaphragm clutch will have nowhere near the durability of a standard multi spring clutch pack. I'm not sure on the Super Tenere but the KTM/Husqvarna DS diaphragms have no rubber dampers. So clutch wear is accelerated in extreme use. They are coming out with or already have a new DDS damped version. As a bonus the diaphragm clutches belleville washer applies even pressure around the circumference of the clutch pack. I imagine that my clutch basket will wear longer, but only time will tell. I normally don't get much more than 50 hours on plates and less than 200 hours on my baskets.
 

SoDakTraut

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That is an unfair and incorrect assumption on your part. The diaphragm clutch is no different (other than having a lighter pull at lever) in actuation or clutch pull. In fact it's very linear and predictable as well as being more compact and maintaining a light clutch actuation. It is lighter but no cheaper to manufacture.

You simply need to practice more on using the clutch. I imagine it's safe to assume you have very little off road experience in slow rock crawling where proper clutch use is important. This is my very first bike with a diaphragm clutch and it's no harder to modulate/actuate than any other clutch pack.

OTOH, by nature of design, the diaphragm clutch will have nowhere near the durability of a standard multi spring clutch pack. I'm not sure on the Super Tenere but the KTM/Husqvarna DS diaphragms have no rubber dampers. So clutch wear is accelerated in extreme use. They are coming out with or already have a new DDS damped version. As a bonus the diaphragm clutches belleville washer applies even pressure around the circumference of the clutch pack. I imagine that my clutch basket will wear longer, but only time will tell. I normally don't get much more than 50 hours on plates and less than 200 hours on my baskets.
If you have a technical background give this a read, then reconsider the incorrectness of my statement http://www.haussermann.com/pub/pdf/en/tellerfeder.pdf. Of course a diaphragm spring can be tuned to approximate a linear response curve, but thats a pain and not whats done on these bikes (gen 1 ST), hence the relatively small engagement distance and perceived on/off/unpredictability.Also a diaphragm spring, appropriately designed, will have better performance through the life of the friction plate than a coil spring because of it's non-linear nature. Diaphragm springs in auto application clutches outlast every other part of the car. I'm pretty sure they're cheaper too.

I am not the typical forum going boomer with more money than sense and that would be an incorrect assumption in my case.
It's not "harder" at all, just a touch goofy and different for the uninitiated.
You're right, everyone can use better clutch technique, regardless of what/where you ride. I suggest that if you can't feel the difference between a diaphragm and a coil spring (disclaimer: at least between a 13 ST diaphragm and a traditional coil spring) see if you can ride the bikes side by side. pay attention to the travel of lever relative to grab in the clutch. The difference is that on a diaphragm it tends to be shorter.

If you're only getting 50 hours out of clutch plates you're doing something very very wrong.
 
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ballisticexchris

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Actually in extreme slow speed trail riding 50 hours is not bad for a set of plates for a novice rider such as myself.
 

SoDakTraut

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Sounds like you need to go up 5-8 teeth in the rear and down one or two in the front and visualize your line a bit better. Watch the cross training enduro skills videos on YT
 
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ballisticexchris

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Sounds like you need to go up 5-8 teeth in the rear and down one or two in the front and visualize your line a bit better. Watch the cross training enduro skills videos on YT
You tube videos are going to do nothing for helping me pick a line. I'm well past the age of doing that kind of abuse to my body and bike. FWIW even a pro rider will burn through clutches on rides like this:

100_0347.JPG100_0353.JPG
 
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ballisticexchris

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You don't know what you don't know and if you haven't tried the Barnett pressure plate kit in an S10, then you don't know just how much better it is over the stock spring.
I have a Gen 2 Super Tenere. The OEM clutch works just fine. No issues whatsoever. At some point I might try a Barnett. For now it's just not worth the hassle. I have used Barnett clutches in the past on my KZ's. Good products for sure. My ASV adjustable lever has a lot to do with the feel. I have experience with many aftermarket clutches and have not found many that are better than OEM for everyday normal riding conditions.
 
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ballisticexchris

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Pro or Rookie that’s not a good place to ride a Tenere !
It's no place for any bike!! I was practicing for an extreme dual sport event. The pictures you see are about one month before my last brutal ride. I'm only riding mellow trails and fire roads these days. While I'm prepping my Super Tenere for the worst, I hope to never get in a bad situation like the pictures above. I guess you can say I've aged out out of tearing up clutches, bikes and body.......
 

Don in Lodi

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We had a trick on the Royal Star heavy cruiser, double up the diaphragm spring disc. There was just enough of a lip there to keep everything in place. My Royal started losing clutch grip at about 40,000 miles. I installed a Barnett on top of the original discs/plates that actually measured good and got great trailer pulling grip for another 70,000 miles. It was still working fine when I sold her.
 

MNrider

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Got the 2nd kit, this time straight from Barnett. Both of my kits are identical in packaging and appearance. Still doesn't work though and can overpower the clutch with my feet. And can still slightly move the clutch plates when it's engaged. Even though the stock spring setup works. The difference I noticed in the stock pressure plate compared to the Barnett one is that the offset is different where the push rod rides on the inner bearing in relation to the inner surface where the clutch plates contact. The Barnett bearing is about 1/8" closer on the inboard/engine side. Which means the clutch push rod has to take up that dimension. So it's possible that it's not letting the pressure plate bottom out on the clutch boss fully. I did bleed the clutch to attempt to get the push rod to have a different engagement point with the Barnett but no luck.
 

OldRider

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Got the 2nd kit, this time straight from Barnett. Both of my kits are identical in packaging and appearance. Still doesn't work though and can overpower the clutch with my feet. And can still slightly move the clutch plates when it's engaged. Even though the stock spring setup works. The difference I noticed in the stock pressure plate compared to the Barnett one is that the offset is different where the push rod rides on the inner bearing in relation to the inner surface where the clutch plates contact. The Barnett bearing is about 1/8" closer on the inboard/engine side. Which means the clutch push rod has to take up that dimension. So it's possible that it's not letting the pressure plate bottom out on the clutch boss fully. I did bleed the clutch to attempt to get the push rod to have a different engagement point with the Barnett but no luck.
There's something here that you're just not seeing. I've installed several Barnett pressure plate kits on various Yamaha's, two were S-10's, with no problem at all. The pressure plate should be up against the last fiber plate. Have you turned the pressure plate and put it in the grooves in several places to make sure it's bottoming out against the last fiber plate?
 

MNrider

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Feb 3, 2019
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Tried all index positions, will not tighten to the last fiber plate. Back to back installation for comparison, the stock setup is tight to all the clutch plates.
 

MNrider

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If you remove the outer push rod and install the Barnett kit just for reference, it will tightly contact the fiber plates. The 1/8" dimensional discrepancy I mentioned earlier from stock is limiting the full travel of the pressure plate to bottom out on the clutch plates. Even when the push rod is bottomed out in it's travel. Something is definitely incompatible here.
 

SoDakTraut

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If you remove the outer push rod and install the Barnett kit just for reference, it will tightly contact the fiber plates. The 1/8" dimensional discrepancy I mentioned earlier from stock is limiting the full travel of the pressure plate to bottom out on the clutch plates. Even when the push rod is bottomed out in it's travel. Something is definitely incompatible here.
Weird, barnett skills be helpful with that though
 
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