BMW GS Update

Dirt_Dad

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A well ridden sport bike will outpace a well ridden Super Tenere down any twisty set of roads, every time.
Every adventure bike under the sun will outpace a Harley in the twisties. I was on the KTM last Sunday, but I'm pretty sure I could have been on the wife's XT250 when I had to pass 12 Harleys going up Rt 33. Thank god it's 2 lanes going up. Most were hanging out in the left lane and I suspect surprised to see me go by in the empty right lane. One of them had to use both lanes to make the turns, so had to get a bit of a straight away to leave him behind. I have no idea if any of them had rider skills, it didn't show through on those things.
 

Boris

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Packs of Harleys can be difficult to pass. Some of their groups really aren’t happy if you get amongst them. A few years back me and a mate were following the Mosel in Germany, and we came up upon a group of maybe 20-25 harleys, no patches, but still Harleys. A couple of them got quite aggressive when we got amongst them while overtaking a few at a time.
 

Dirt_Dad

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I heard them ahead of me before going up. Considered pulling over for 10 minutes to wait. Then remembered it was 2 lanes going up. I rolled the dice and figured I could get around them in that scenario. Had it been a single lane there's no way I'd keep going. I run into this situation a lot. Pretty common for me to get to the end of a straight-away and just sit for a minute or two... or three. All depending on when a car shows up behind me. It's much better than riding behind them and fuming. Not sure if this pack didn't like it or not. I suspect they're not happy when a school bus passes them going up hill either.
 

Madhatter

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pirates , are not the brightest bunch out there . they are rugged individualist all dressed alike in big groups ,and when there is a crash it takes out more than one . remember loud pipes save lives .
 

bmac

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I should have made myself more clear. I am speaking of public highways not track. With 2 equal riders riding within "line of sight" on twisty's, a Super Tenere has 100% the cornering ability and performance capability of a sport bike. A smart rider never ever rides faster than what he/she can see to safely stop.

Now if you are speaking of riding like a squid and stuffing the bike into blind corners, cutting the apex, lifting the rear wheel while braking, etc, then the sport bike is going to win every time. Of course the chance of getting a helicopter ride to hospital or coroners van to the morgue increases as well.
The 3 Super Tenere's that I owned did not have the 100% cornering or performance capability of a sport bike. It was not even close.

Perhaps, in your case, with self admitted less advanced riding skills there is no difference between the S10 and sport bikes. BUT, and this is a really big BUT, the reality is that there is a very big difference between them. It is unfortunate that you cannot understand or acknowledge that.
 

Dirt_Dad

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Personally I think any rider can be much quicker on a sporty 17" front vs any 19" front. I think the difference is night and day. If a 19" rider is faster than a 17" rider on a bike with similar power, that's all pilot skill.

Since I have to keep my license, I really don't appreciate the having to ride as fast as a sporty 17" front requires to deliver a thrill. Just don't have that much time to be hanging out in a jail or hospital.
 

holligl

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Personally I think any rider can be much quicker on a sporty 17" front vs any 19" front. I think the difference is night and day. If a 19" rider is faster than a 17" rider on a bike with similar power, that's all pilot skill.

Since I have to keep my license, I really don't appreciate the having to ride as fast as a sporty 17" front requires to deliver a thrill. Just don't have that much time to be hanging out in a jail or hospital.
Might explain the slower 21" front wheel Harleys too. But then again, I'm not sure I would take on a 21" KTM...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk
 

Dirt_Dad

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I know more about rotory dial phones than I do about Harleys. I know the riders ive met at some common stops have almost always been pleasant and good to speak with. Which is not my description when following them on a twisty mountain road.

I hear the KTM 21 is excellent at the twisty roads. Same with the AT i test rode. Some manufacturers do it better than others.
 

sky4

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I should have made myself more clear. I am speaking of public highways not track. With 2 equal riders riding within "line of sight" on twisty's, a Super Tenere has 100% the cornering ability and performance capability of a sport bike. A smart rider never ever rides faster than what he/she can see to safely stop.

Now if you are speaking of riding like a squid and stuffing the bike into blind corners, cutting the apex, lifting the rear wheel while braking, etc, then the sport bike is going to win every time. Of course the chance of getting a helicopter ride to hospital or coroners van to the morgue increases as well.
the super T is defintely more than enough in the canyons. I ride for optimal line of sight on the street, not optimal "apex all the corners" track riding. I was hanging with a multistrada ridden by a guy who's at least half squid the other day. the tenere is a big heavy bike, but it rarely feels like it.
 

sky4

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Here's a 100k mile BMW GS reliability review.

it does seem like BMW has gotten it right with the wasserboxer. I came to the super T from a R100GS. I loved the R100gs, but it's an antique, and I had that bike torn in half every single winter. The yamaha feels like it was carefully crafted by a bunch of brilliant lab coat wearing engineers in response to problems with every other adv bike.

That said i would like to see what zee germans have been up to in the 30 years since they airhead GS. Seems like the driveline is much more solid. it's got a few little hiccups with electronics but generally nothing that really ends your day.
 

sky4

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And the newer 1250 should be even better.
But still a long way fro Yamaha quality :)
BMW motorrad is a little mom and pop operation compared to yamaha heavy industries. Nobody quite perfects things like the japanese either. It's a true cultural obsession to make things simpler and more robust. I had a lot of fun with my german bike, but it was homemade compared to the super tenere. I would love to ride and wrench on one of the wasserboxers though. I know BMW has been in bed with Toyota a bit (see the new supra), and i think some good stuff has been rubbing off on the Bavarians.

EDIT- looks like i was wrong about BMW being smaller than yamaha... interesting.
 
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Sierra1

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And yet, all we hear about is German Engineering. The closest that Japan gets to bragging is using the three tuning forks in the Yamaha emblem. They (Japan) just quietly build things better than everybody else. Or, maybe I should say better for longer.
 

sky4

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And yet, all we hear about is German Engineering. The closest that Japan gets to bragging is using the three tuning forks in the Yamaha emblem. They (Japan) just quietly build things better than everybody else. Or, maybe I should say better for longer.
i will give the germans credit for rolling crazy new ideas into production... I honestly do think BMW has done some amazing things for motorcycling as a sport/pastime as well as a legitimate means of conveyance. As far as quality/longevity/fault tolerance though the japanese brands have it on lock. Their stuff is as near to perfect as a manufactured device could be. There's an old story that kicks around about ford pinto transmissions- the US made ones had a lot of problems, the japanese ones all lasted 100+ thousand miles. Same design. same prints. The japanese manufacturer just took the time to really understand the tolerance stack ups, and make them all nominal in internal clearances. Basically making sure that every unit worked as the engineers intended.
 
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RonH

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Trouble with BMW and the German thing is they use crap Chinese crap all over the motorcycle just like Harley Davidson does. Majority of the problems they see over and over on switchgear ect are from using cheap Chinese parts. Hopefully the newer models have addressed this issue by using better quality cheap Chinese parts, but I like Japanese quality myself so will stay with Japan as my country of choice in motorcycles.
 

Eville Rich

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I'm pretty sure there are plenty of Chinese parts on the S10. The truth is, Chinese manufacturing can be quite good. It all depends on the company, management, and contract.

It's really the same thing with German manufacturing and engineering. None of it really has anything to do with where stuff is made and who designs it. It's the underlying strategy of the brand. BMW seeks to position themselves as forward looking and pushing innovation/performance but landing somewhere in the middle of reliability (they sell a broader line of more basic cars in Europe that aren't part of their U.S. strategy). This justifies their marketing of cars and motorbikes as an accessible premium product. Not super advanced and high maintenance as luxury brands, not as staid and reliability focused as others. You can't be high priced and unreliable unless you are really bleeding edge. You also can't be unreliable and cheap unless you are simple and basic. Many Japanese firms take the reliability at the expense of innovation approach, cutting their own path in the market. Reasonably advanced, reliable, but also not simple. BMW simply takes their own angle on the continuum.

Depending on where a buyer is on the continuum, they will be drawn toward the three directions to varying degrees - price, reliability, and innovation. The point here is that companies make these choices by their branding strategy. You can't be all things to all people.

Eville Rich
2016 S10
 

bmac

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And yet, all we hear about is German Engineering. The closest that Japan gets to bragging is using the three tuning forks in the Yamaha emblem. They (Japan) just quietly build things better than everybody else. Or, maybe I should say better for longer.
The Germans do take engineering to a different level than the Japanese. A car mechanic friend of mine that spends a lot of time working on Audi's, Mercedes, and BMW's talks about how overly complicated some of their stuff is. When they have an issue they often add technology to solve the problem. That Japanese approach is one of simplicity. They look to how they can solve a problem with the least complication and the lowest number of parts. As a result their stuff is easier to build and maintain AND cheaper to produce in the first place.
 

Checkswrecks

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It was fun in the local BMW dealer (Bob's) this week to buy a map and have the sales guy raise his eyebrow and act shocked when I said I'd rather keep my Tenere than buy his GS and it wasn't about price. Some of the Beemers can be fun to ride but I have no desire to own one.
 

Wallkeeper

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i will give the germans credit for rolling crazy new ideas into production... I honestly do think BMW has done some amazing things for motorcycling as a sport/pastime as well as a legitimate means of conveyance. As far as quality/longevity/fault tolerance though the japanese brands have it on lock. Their stuff is as near to perfect as a manufactured device could be. There's an old story that kicks around about ford pinto transmissions- the US made ones had a lot of problems, the japanese ones all lasted 100+ thousand miles. Same design. same prints. The japanese manufacturer just took the time to really understand the tolerance stack ups, and make them all nominal in internal clearances. Basically making sure that every unit worked as the engineers intended.
Japan went absolutely to the edge with what Deming had to teach. In the process they forced the rest of the world to get better to stay competitive. When I was a kid "made in Japan" was a curse. Now it is a guarantee of quality**

Can anyone say "Six Sigma"?

Wally

** we won't mention Toshiba and San Onofre..........
 
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