Hard Start- Is there a solution?

1slo-xtz

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Hi there,

I have a 2014 S10 which I bought last year with 1000 miles on it. I believe this bike sat at the dealership until its first owner purchased it in 2016.

I have been using my S10 for commuting this past month. My commute is about 8 miles/15 minutes one way.

I do not have a garage and regularly start the bike in 30 degree temperatures. I have to start it WOT or it will not catch. When it does start, I have to keep the revs up or it will die.

Last week, after sitting for 2 days, it would not catch at all and the battery eventually died. I decided to buy another replacement battery.

Now, it starts without me needing to “hard start” WOT, but still dies if I don’t rev the engine for 5-10 seconds.

I have gone through some of the Hard Start thread and have read other sources anout this. What I don’t understand is, can anything be done to solve this problem? New spark plugs? More powerful battery?

I can’t seem to find any real solutions. Any advice would be helpful.

Thank you!
 

scott123007

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Wild guess here, but it sounds like the fuel injectors need some love. Run some Startron or similar injector cleaner though a couple tanks and see if that helps.
 

Squibb

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Answer - certainly, but not always easy to track down. So just a Q&A to set us on our way ..........

Are we talking a late Gen1 or early Gen2/Gen2 ES ?
Battery - the YTZ 12 S can be replaced with a 14, which will give you better CCA. Personally I prefer Yuasa - just don't let cheap crap tempt you.
Codes - have you or your dealer checked for error/fault codes? Any warning lights showing on the dash?
Useage - has the bike ever had a decent long hard run in it's life, or even an Italian tune-up? It's barely broken in yet.
Starting procedure - it should start on a closed throttle, leaving the ECU to set the parameters. Don't interfere unless WOT intervention essential.
Fuel pump - does this spring/whirr into action promptly when you switch on & stop abruptly once adequate fuelpressure is attained?
Fuel - the bike has stood around for most of it's life. Has the system been flushed through, or Seafoam/similar ever been used to clear any water that may have accumulated in the tank?
Servicing Regime - when was it last serviced at Yamaha? ..... or at a decent workshop familiar with the S10?

Let's see how we go from there.

BTW, can you let us have a personal intro, when you have a moment.
 
R

RonH

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May be the throttle bodies need to be synced. Better battery as mentioned also, the YTZ14S instead of the 12S. The 2014-up generally don't have the hard start problems that were common on the 2012-2013 models.
 

steve68steve

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Starting in cold temps, with such a short ride for re-charging... do you keep it on a trickle charger when parked?

A cold engine is physically harder to turn over. Oil's thicker, battery's weaker.
I have a diesel truck that would NOT start if it's been 20def F or colder for a few hours. If I forgot plug in the block heater when parked, it wasn't starting in the morning. With the block heater plugged in, it would start right up.
 

Don in Lodi

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The newest harness recall? Supposed to have idle issues as a symptom.
 

tallpaul

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We could do with pics of the bike. I'm not sure if we are looking at a gen1 or a gen2! The advice that would be forthcoming would differ depending on which gen it is. Just a thought...
 

tallpaul

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Saw that too but I know from my searching before I bought mine, that's no guarantee. There are bikes in the UK registered in 2016 that are remaindered 2013 models. I was just thinking that a picture would confirm for certain.
 

blitz11

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ITALIAN TUNE-UP??? :D

I had NEVER heard that before, but I actually did laugh out loud. Ha! I had an image in my mind's eye, and when I searched it out, my image was exactly right.

I am still chuckling. Very funny.
 

Don in Lodi

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Saw that too but I know from my searching before I bought mine, that's no guarantee. There are bikes in the UK registered in 2016 that are remaindered 2013 models. I was just thinking that a picture would confirm for certain.
The UK does things differently. I've read many posts over the years and I still don't get it. Everywhere else in the world the manufacture date is the year of the bike, not the first registered date.
 

EricV

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What RonH said. you don't have a hard start issue. You have a lean condition due to throttle body sync issue. Back the painted TB screw out 3/4 turn from full in, then sync the other TB to that.
 
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1slo-xtz

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Answer - certainly, but not always easy to track down. So just a Q&A to set us on our way ..........

Are we talking a late Gen1 or early Gen2/Gen2 ES ?
Battery - the YTZ 12 S can be replaced with a 14, which will give you better CCA. Personally I prefer Yuasa - just don't let cheap crap tempt you.
Codes - have you or your dealer checked for error/fault codes? Any warning lights showing on the dash?
Useage - has the bike ever had a decent long hard run in it's life, or even an Italian tune-up? It's barely broken in yet.
Starting procedure - it should start on a closed throttle, leaving the ECU to set the parameters. Don't interfere unless WOT intervention essential.
Fuel pump - does this spring/whirr into action promptly when you switch on & stop abruptly once adequate fuelpressure is attained?
Fuel - the bike has stood around for most of it's life. Has the system been flushed through, or Seafoam/similar ever been used to clear any water that may have accumulated in the tank?
Servicing Regime - when was it last serviced at Yamaha? ..... or at a decent workshop familiar with the S10?

Let's see how we go from there.

BTW, can you let us have a personal intro, when you have a moment.
I have a 2014 non ES gen 2 model. No warning lights. It now has 3000 miles on it and I have performed the Italian tune up quite a few times! That said, it has sat for 2-3 month periods without use. I remove the battery.

My new battery is a 12s replacement from Batteries & Bulbs. I can always hear the fuel pump whir when I turn the bike on.

I added a container of seafoam today, but it didn’t seem to make a difference.

The bike, with its new fully charged battery, will now turn over without WOT. It immediately dies if I don’t give it throttle for 5-10 seconds.

I changed the oil and final drive fluid last year, but it hasn’t been serviced since new as far as I know.
 

1slo-xtz

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Starting in cold temps, with such a short ride for re-charging... do you keep it on a trickle charger when parked?

A cold engine is physically harder to turn over. Oil's thicker, battery's weaker.
I have a diesel truck that would NOT start if it's been 20def F or colder for a few hours. If I forgot plug in the block heater when parked, it wasn't starting in the morning. With the block heater plugged in, it would start right up.
I live in an apt complex, so unfortunately no trickle charger.
 

1slo-xtz

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What RonH said. you don't have a hard start issue. You have a lean condition due to throttle body sync issue. Back the painted TB screw out 3/4 turn from full in, then sync the other RB to that.
I will try the TB sync next since adding seafoam didn’t solve the problem today.

What does RB stand for?
 

Squibb

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The question now is why is the ECU not taking care of the mixture during the start-up process. I accept the TBs could be out of sync, but why does she run OK once through this starting stage. Intake air leaks, sensor errors, lambda/O2 all spring to mind & the fact that it hasn't seen Yamaha since PDI doesn't help, so I reckon we need a bit more diagnostics before any hard conclusions are made.

Can we get the OP to check for fault/error codes & see what we have.............

Kickstand down
Transmission in 1st
Kill switch STOP
Press and hold TCS and RESET at the same time
Turn key ON
Continue to press and hold TCS and RESET until SELECT/ECU appears on the display
Press and hold TCS and RESET again until DIAG appears
Press and hold TCS and RESET again until 1/14 appears
Press TCS until 61/xx appears. xx is the fault code, if there is more than one they will appear in sequence
Press TCS until 62/xx appears. xx is the number of stored codes.
Turn key OFF to exit diagnostics

Then post the stored codes on the system. Hopefully this will give us a steer.

It's easy enough to clear the codes at the final stage, before exiting diagnostics - just flip kill switch to RUN then STOP. However I suggest they are left extant at this stage.
 

EricV

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I will try the TB sync next since adding seafoam didn’t solve the problem today.

What does RB stand for?
Typo, should have been TB for throttle body.

edit - It's not un-common for the TBs to be set so lean that the cold engine will die at stops over the first few thousand miles before the engine loosens up. Especially if it's not being ridden regularly. Backing out the balance screw gives it more air, then you match the other side to that to balance the two throttle bodies. It's important to understand that the paint marked screw is usually intended to not be adjusted during a TB balance, it's your reference point to match the other TB to.

In this case, it's being suggested that you turn the paint marked screw all the way in, (keep track of how much it moves and keep a record of that for reference), then back it out from full in, 3/4 of a turn. This is a known good amount of air flow. Then balance the other side with some form of manometer or electronic balancer tool. After that, you should never need to mess with the paint marked screw, just balance again when needed with the un-marked screw.

Remember, the throttle bodies do not adjust FUEL. You are adjusting AIR flow. The fuel injectors supply fuel and are controlled by the ECU with inputs from various sensors. That is not adjustable w/o a flash or other specific tuning tools. Fuel is not a common user adjustment, (except for the right hand on the throttle. :p )
 
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1slo-xtz

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Feb 19, 2019
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Today, I exchanged the 12s style battery for a 14s replacement from Batteries & Bulbs.

Since my battery was removed, any fault codes might have been wiped out.

I will ride for another day and check fault codes on Friday.
 

Jlq1969

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The question now is why is the ECU not taking care of the mixture during the start-up process. I accept the TBs could be out of sync, but why does she run OK once through this starting stage. Intake air leaks, sensor errors, lambda/O2 all spring to mind & the fact that it hasn't seen Yamaha since PDI doesn't help, so I reckon we need a bit more diagnostics before any hard conclusions are made.

Can we get the OP to check for fault/error codes & see what we have.............

Kickstand down
Transmission in 1st
Kill switch STOP
Press and hold TCS and RESET at the same time
Turn key ON
Continue to press and hold TCS and RESET until SELECT/ECU appears on the display
Press and hold TCS and RESET again until DIAG appears
Press and hold TCS and RESET again until 1/14 appears
Press TCS until 61/xx appears. xx is the fault code, if there is more than one they will appear in sequence
Press TCS until 62/xx appears. xx is the number of stored codes.
Turn key OFF to exit diagnostics

Then post the stored codes on the system. Hopefully this will give us a steer.

It's easy enough to clear the codes at the final stage, before exiting diagnostics - just flip kill switch to RUN then STOP. However I suggest they are left extant at this stage.
Did you control the ligth from the spark plugs?. An increase in the ligth wich traslate iin 1 or 2 degrees of delay of ignition and that makes starting difficult. The same as the valve light, a little closed or open, generate delay or admission advance, wich traslate in descompression and where is most noticeable at starup. Another thing, in the cold start, O2 sensor, does not work, needs temperature to do it correctly. If there are those that work in cold start, they have 4 wires, of which 2 wires are to heat Lamba during ignition, but they are not the ones with S10
 

Juan

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So many highly technical answers - and I thought I knew something about the bike! Far from it.
 
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