"California gas" ruined engine.

California Air Resources Board aka "CARB" mandates the use of "oxygenated" fuels to reduce emissions. Ethanol is very common. Others, including MTBE (YEOW!) have been used or are in use. These additives are used elsewhere in the country including here in Minnesota.

The presumption stated here is "Gas is Gas" To a large degree that is true. Up to WW II this was not the case and it was a common issue since the original gasolines were casing head precipitates or byproducts of kerosene distillation. . With WWII and the advent of Cracking technology the need to standardize fuels for high performance engines forced commonality on the refineries. Derivatives are so similar now that refineries will routinely swap output with their competitors meaning Chevron El Segundo will deliver fuel to a Texaco station in Inglewood. ARCO (Marathon) Carson will deliver to Costco Santa Ana and so on.

What is my point? If there was a problem with the fuel then lots of engines in California should be dying

Wallkeeper said:

Derivatives are so similar now that refineries will routinely swap output with their competitors meaning Chevron El Segundo will deliver fuel to a Texaco station in Inglewood. ARCO (Marathon) Carson will deliver to Costco Santa Ana and so on.

What is my point? If there was a problem with the fuel then lots of engines in California should be dying

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Chevron El Segundo only produces Jet A and Diesel for their loading terminal. Everything else is piped out to other terminals. Marathon refinery has a "community pipeline" that produces petroleum products for almost all the loading terminals in the west coast. The only Arco "branded" racks in Southern CA are Arco Vinvale and East Hynes. It's all in the additives that makes the brand of gas.

Sierra1 said:

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't ride in high rpms just to do it. Each bike has it's own power band, and you can feel it. I've always rode the power band(s) in all of my bike(s), some higher, some lower. The Tenere has a great low end grunt, but she also comes alive in the higher rpms (relatively speaking). My kid's R6. . . . has almost nothing below 8k rpms.

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Have you ever ridden a GL1800 Goldwing ? the low end grunt on a Tenere is more like a joke !

There's no re-placement for dis-placement.

More like a joke? Try riding that wing over Imogene Pass two up. The Tenere just pulls like a mule at 1,200 RPM.

As far as the Tenere with carbon problems I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.
I have been riding my 2012 for over 8 years now with no problems like that.
I run the bike on 87 octane 10% ethanol almost all it's life.
I have never ever added any additive to the fuel for any reason.
I'm not a hard rider [RPM wise] I just ride around slow and easy sightseeing mostly. I probably haven't been over 5,000 RPM for a few years.[corrected this 4-14-20] Except in high gear on interstates.
Mine does have a few miles on it, so if any Tenere should have this kind of problem I would think it would be mine. Mine runs fantastic! [Both of them.]

Steve

Sierra1 said:

There's no re-placement for dis-placement.

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I also ride a 113 ci/1900 cc bike. I have that shirt!

Cycledude said:

Have you ever ridden a GL1800 Goldwing ? the low end grunt on a Tenere is more like a joke !

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I cannot imagine. But I will tell you I always wanted to have a Honda VTX1800 in my garage. I watched a GSXR 1000 and VTX1800 go head to head at a green light that just turned. The VTX1800 came off the line like he was shot out of a cannon. I have never seen anything like it in my life.

ballisticexchris said:

Chevron El Segundo only produces Jet A and Diesel for their loading terminal. Everything else is piped out to other terminals. Marathon refinery has a "community pipeline" that produces petroleum products for almost all the loading terminals in the west coast. The only Arco "branded" racks in Southern CA are Arco Vinvale and East Hynes. It's all in the additives that makes the brand of gas.

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Thanks for the updated info Chris. It has been 30 years since I worked in the California Patch

eemsreno said:

More like a joke? Try riding that wing over Imogene Pass two up. The Tenere just pulls like a mule at 1,200 RPM
Steve

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The wing engine could handle it even better than the Tenere but it Would not be good for the rest of the bike it simply wasn’t designed for that.
On a flat paved road the wing can easily start out in any gear 1-5 without touching the throttle, try that sometime with a Tenere, I highly doubt you will get past second gear but I guess I will have to actually try that myself sometime To be positively sure.
I never was a fan of these vibrating twin cylinder engines ALL the ADV bike manufacturers choose to use.

Wallkeeper said:

Thanks for the updated info Chris. It has been 30 years since I worked in the California Patch

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No sweat. In fact we got a notice about a year ago that no truck can enter the El Segundo facility gas wet. You have to be diesel or jet wet to get in the gate.

Also an update on John Wayne (Orange County SNA) airport. Last year they had some huge storage tanks and pipeline completed. Now the fuel gets piped in directly from El Segundo. It's a big deal to do this. I think every few weeks or so they have to run a pig through the pipe and flush it in order to receive the Jet A. The smaller private jets still get the fuel trucked in because it's cheaper for the low volume they are using.

Heathbar said:

So I have a 2017 Super Tenere I bought in February 2018. After 2 years and 16,000 miles the engine would not start. I took it to the dealership who also could not get it to start. They did a leak down test to find 68% leakage in one cylinder and 53% in the other. They broke the engine down and after a back and forth with Yamaha, everyone is trying to blame it on the "California Gas" that had carbon deposits forming on the intake valves giving it this huge leak down problem. As of right now, Yamaha, the dealership, and the Extended Service Contract by Aegis Powersports are all blaming the "California Gas" and are directing me to an additive called Engine Med. As of this moment (still trying to deal with the dealership and Aegis) they are all telling me that this is my problem. Who would make a motorcycle (Yamaha), or sell a motorcycle (dealership), or sign me up for an extended service contract (Aegis), in California when the motorcycle cannot run on "California Gas"?

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Mr. Heathbar,

Any new news from Yamaha or the dealership ? Are you able to provide any photos of the tops of the pistons or the heads ? Will the dealer let you take some photos ?

I know I never worried about carbon build up on my wife's Tenere. I could hear her Tenere screaming back there as we'd go through the twisties. She's a big believer in engine braking and was never shy about using higher RPMs to control her speed. That engine had to be spotless.

Dirt_Dad said:

I know I never worried about carbon build up on my wife's Tenere. I could hear her Tenere screaming back there as we'd go through the twisties. She's a big believer in engine braking and was never shy about using higher RPMs to control her speed. That engine had to be spotless.

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On that note, I have a friend that rides his Tenere with a “zest” of acceleration. He has no issue on just about every on-ramp running the engine up to about 7K under accelerating load. His bike now has 107,500 miles and runs like brand new.
About 7K miles ago I check the valves once again. When I looked at the intake valves, they are the cleanest valves I’ve ever seen on a Tenere. (For folks that don’t know, I’ve worked on hundreds of Teneres and probably looked at 100 sets of valves) These were absolutely clean like a brand new valve. On Tenere’s, these intake valves do tend to get dirty and have build up on them. But not as much as exhaust valves.
I believe that running this motor through the rev range under various loads greatly help reduce carbon build up on the top-end of this particular motor.

~TABASCO~ said:

On that note, I have a friend that rides his Tenere with a “zest” of acceleration. He has no issue on just about every on ramp running the engine up to about 7K under accelerating load. . . .

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Phew!! I thought you were going to say that was bad for the motor. Yay!! I love cleaning my engine.

This doesn't help Heathbar with his issues on his Super T but i have a couple carbon deposit stories that may or may not be odd. I have twice had a motor lose compression. just poking around trying to figure it out found there was a bit of hard carbon stuck on the edge of an exhaust valve. I could see it through the port on the head. I sprayed it down with carb cleaner to soften it up some and took a wire and scraped it off. Those engines are still running today. Years later i took one of them apart and it really didn't have a bad carbon build up. Just a fluke that happened i guess. The other a feller i know brought me a Polaris in a box. It had burned oil from the day he bought it new. Took it back for service several times during the years he owned it. It got to the point he carried oil with him to put in it. the check engine lite would come on and he would stop and put oil in it. Last service they tore the whole engine down and said it was shot and was going to cost 6 or 7 thousand dollars to repair it. He brought it to me in a box. Both cylinders were covered in carbon and one of the had hard carbon on the head and valves over a quarter inch thick. the piston was the same way and you could see that there was no room for gas and air in that cylinder because the piston carbon had been hitting the carbon on the head. It was a mess. During the clean up and rebuild process i found that the crank case breather was connected to a factory plugged port on the air box. The breather hose had swelled to the size of a golf ball in the middle. I guess from day one it was like that and pushing oil past the rings. Good news though it purrs like a kitten now and doesn't use any oil. I have never seen that much carbon in a motor in my life!

cyclemike4 said:

I sprayed it down with carb cleaner to soften it up some and took a wire and scraped it off.

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I think carb cleaner is the best at removing carbon. Seems I remember trying brake parts cleaner when I last tore down the engine in my car, and it barely made a dent in the carbon, but the carb cleaner just melted it right off.

To the folks worrying about E10 fuel, I'd venture that the problem is NOT the ethanol content. Methanol and ethanol are two of the most simple alcohols, and they burn clean. The problem is that ethanol is 105 octane (basically race fuel), and so to get your 87/89/91 octane fuel mixtures, they combine the ethanol with absolute crap base fuel (like 80 octane or something). Don't quote me on this, just a rumor I've read, therefore it must be true.

I'd again note that there are TWO carbon-based fluids in the engine that can cause carbon fouling: fuel and oil. Both are possible, but I'd venture that you'd have to be running pig rich to get a ton of carbon fouling from the fuel. Also, I'd note that engines can still run pig rich even with computer-controlled fueling -- such as with a "false lean" condition. Oxygen sensors only detect oxygen, so if excess oxygen finds its way into the exhaust (from exhaust leaks, misfires, hanging valves, etc.), then the computer will compensate by needlessly adding MORE fuel. (Another part of me wonders if we're running the correct heat range plug to keep things clean for this engine, but that's another discussion).

Apropos of nothing:

After hearing these stories, I had already intended to tear into my bike to seal up the ignition coils today, but while I'm in there, I'm going to try to install a catch can on the crankcase breather to see how much oil/vapor is making its way to the air box. I'll give it a few months and post any incredible results.

~TABASCO~ said:

Mr. Heathbar,

Any new news from Yamaha or the dealership ? Are you able to provide any photos of the tops of the pistons or the heads ? Will the dealer let you take some photos ?

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I just asked for photos today 4/21. I went by personally the other day and because of Covid, I could not go into the dealership. Hopefully they will send photos soon. I asked for top and bottom of valves, bottom of head, top of pistons, etc.

eemsreno said:

More like a joke? Try riding that wing over Imogene Pass two up. The Tenere just pulls like a mule at 1,200 RPM.

As far as the Tenere with carbon problems I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction.
I have been riding my 2012 for over 8 years now with no problems like that.
I run the bike on 87 octane 10% ethanol almost all it's life.
I have never ever added any additive to the fuel for any reason.
I'm not a hard rider [RPM wise] I just ride around slow and easy sightseeing mostly. I probably haven't been over 5,000 RPM for a few years.[corrected this 4-14-20] Except in high gear on interstates.
Mine does have a few miles on it, so if any Tenere should have this kind of problem I would think it would be mine. Mine runs fantastic! [Both of them.]

Steve

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Thanks for your response Steve. I hope the mechanic didn't misdiagnose from the get go.

Alexander said:

I think carb cleaner is the best at removing carbon. Seems I remember trying brake parts cleaner when I last tore down the engine in my car, and it barely made a dent in the carbon, but the carb cleaner just melted it right off.

To the folks worrying about E10 fuel, I'd venture that the problem is NOT the ethanol content. Methanol and ethanol are two of the most simple alcohols, and they burn clean. The problem is that ethanol is 105 octane (basically race fuel), and so to get your 87/89/91 octane fuel mixtures, they combine the ethanol with absolute crap base fuel (like 80 octane or something). Don't quote me on this, just a rumor I've read, therefore it must be true.

I'd again note that there are TWO carbon-based fluids in the engine that can cause carbon fouling: fuel and oil. Both are possible, but I'd venture that you'd have to be running pig rich to get a ton of carbon fouling from the fuel. Also, I'd note that engines can still run pig rich even with computer-controlled fueling -- such as with a "false lean" condition. Oxygen sensors only detect oxygen, so if excess oxygen finds its way into the exhaust (from exhaust leaks, misfires, hanging valves, etc.), then the computer will compensate by needlessly adding MORE fuel. (Another part of me wonders if we're running the correct heat range plug to keep things clean for this engine, but that's another discussion).

Apropos of nothing:

After hearing these stories, I had already intended to tear into my bike to seal up the ignition coils today, but while I'm in there, I'm going to try to install a catch can on the crankcase breather to see how much oil/vapor is making its way to the air box. I'll give it a few months and post any incredible results.

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I wish they would have gotten the bike started before tearing it apart like they did. They may in fact could have found the "false lean" condition you mention. They just turned the engine over and it wouldn't start. Without trying anything else to get it started, they took it apart.

^ Bingo.