Author Topic: HARD START  (Read 166132 times)

Offline jackintherok

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #840 on: February 22, 2018, 07:21:59 pm »
Guys after 5 years of ‘cold start’ and all the problems that go with it, WOT, fuse #4, out, being trucked twice, and push or jump started got a new battery fitted during a thorough check out by Yamaha (electrical, plugs, starter motor, and fuel delivery system ... no problem found and Yamaha only charged for parts). Bought a battery tester (Ancell BA101), a decent ammeter, and set about the new battery. Could go on for a long while, but the battery (fully charged and new) struggled at temps lower than 4oC (down to -8oC) … like it failed to start and flooded or the starter motor labored and engine caught.  When it failed to start, took battery out left in house overnight (no charging), replaced next day (bike temperature -8oC, battery temperature 24oC), F4 out/replace to burn off fuel, and got strong starts every time (even tried after being left at 240C for 90 mins after a no start at -5oC (battery gained 10oC +) and that worked) . Got a lot of data, but bottom line is the BS BTZ 14S battery (new and fully charged) doesn’t have what it takes to guarantee starting my S10 at low temps (though my tester at 0oC says this battery was delivering 270 amps at a cranking voltage of 9.38V), or that my bike requires more CCAs than that stated by Yamaha (my tester says it needs 290 amps + for a good start). What’s more this situation is going to deteriorate with battery age, and my spider senses say this is the root cause of the ‘cold’ start problem. EarthX 36C on order … can’t wait.

Offline Cycledude

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #841 on: February 23, 2018, 10:03:40 am »
Jack I’m Very sorry you keep having this hard start issue, it seems to be a way to common problem with the Super Tenere !  Luckily it’s only happened to my Tenere twice in 30,000 miles. 

Guys after 5 years of ‘cold start’ and all the problems that go with it, WOT, fuse #4, out, being trucked twice, and push or jump started got a new battery fitted during a thorough check out by Yamaha (electrical, plugs, starter motor, and fuel delivery system ... no problem found and Yamaha only charged for parts). Bought a battery tester (Ancell BA101), a decent ammeter, and set about the new battery. Could go on for a long while, but the battery (fully charged and new) struggled at temps lower than 4oC (down to -8oC) … like it failed to start and flooded or the starter motor labored and engine caught.  When it failed to start, took battery out left in house overnight (no charging), replaced next day (bike temperature -8oC, battery temperature 24oC), F4 out/replace to burn off fuel, and got strong starts every time (even tried after being left at 240C for 90 mins after a no start at -5oC (battery gained 10oC +) and that worked) . Got a lot of data, but bottom line is the BS BTZ 14S battery (new and fully charged) doesn’t have what it takes to guarantee starting my S10 at low temps (though my tester at 0oC says this battery was delivering 270 amps at a cranking voltage of 9.38V), or that my bike requires more CCAs than that stated by Yamaha (my tester says it needs 290 amps + for a good start). What’s more this situation is going to deteriorate with battery age, and my spider senses say this is the root cause of the ‘cold’ start problem. EarthX 36C on order … can’t wait.
email ehcycledude@yahoo.com
2013 Tenere heading for Inuvik about August 10th 2018
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=21543.0

Alaska and western Canada trip planing
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?board=84.0

2002 Honda GL1800, yellow, currently 508,000 smiles

Offline Checkswrecks

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #842 on: February 23, 2018, 11:10:26 am »
Jack I’m Very sorry you keep having this hard start issue, it seems to be a way to common problem with the 2010 - 2013 Super Tenere !  Luckily it’s only happened to my Tenere twice in 30,000 miles.


Fixed it for you and agree about feeling for his aggravation.

On a more humorous note, the way Jack's post comes across is that he is experiencing temps of -80C to 240C, which would be about -112 F to 464 F.  ;)   Paper ignites at about 450 F.
Of course, -8 to 24 is really 18 F to 75 F.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2018, 11:14:32 am by Checkswrecks »
Damascus, MD
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Offline ace50

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #843 on: February 23, 2018, 11:30:15 am »
Today I replaced the Yuasa YTS12S battery that came with my new bike in April 2013 with a Yuasa YTZ14S. The old battery was still good enough but required a little charging if not used for a week, otherwise it couldn't crank the bike fast enough to fire up. As soon as I installed the new 14S, I gave it a go, knowing that supplier storage period, etc would have drained the charge somewhat. The new 14S was registering 12.8 volts before connecting it, so I figured that that was good enough to give it a try. And wow, what power! The bike cranked as never before and fired up immediately. I would not hesitate to advise all that when the time comes to replace the battery, the Yuasa YTZ14S is a fine contender.
Just ordered a BikeMaster YTZ14S. (I'm cheap)
Hoping it will start better as it's always been anemic with the stock battery and getting worse now.
Marriage:
My wife said it was like a deck of cards.
At the start, all you need is 2 hearts and a diamond....
Later, you want a club and a spade.

Offline jackintherok

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #844 on: February 23, 2018, 04:07:51 pm »
Checkerwrecks you got a strange sense of humor there bro. Apols even CNN is in centigrade here and posting from Word did the rest. Anyway, thought I’d share because someone might benefit.
ace50 … was tempted by the Yuasa YTZ14S but want this problem sorted for good. So, the EarthX ETX36C is a definite expensive, ‘shit or bust’ move (I don’t have any interest in the company). The new, fully charged BS BTZ14S (fitted by Yamaha as a cheap option I guess) also gives a very strong start at battery temps in the 70’s (and probably in the 60’s and 50’s ... I did not check there), but it was a different (and familiar) tale at around 32 or less (we get freezing temps overnight from around mid October to mid April in Korea). I’m not confident whether the Yuasa YTZ 14S at say a year old could cope with my bike at these low temperatures, because I had ‘hard start’ problem with a YTZ 12S at 7 months (first winter) and it then hard started through the year and died the next winter. The BS battery has the same specs as the YTZ14S, but would expect the Yuasa to have better long-term and low temperature performance. All the best. (my bike is a first edition 2010, same as the 2012 model sold in the States)

Offline Cycledude

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #845 on: February 24, 2018, 03:05:16 am »
So you are saying this hard start issue does not happen to Tenere’s 2014 and up ?  If that’s the case Yamaha must know the cure and should have a fix for the older Tenere.



Fixed it for you and agree about feeling for his aggravation.

On a more humorous note, the way Jack's post comes across is that he is experiencing temps of -80C to 240C, which would be about -112 F to 464 F.  ;)   Paper ignites at about 450 F.
Of course, -8 to 24 is really 18 F to 75 F.
email ehcycledude@yahoo.com
2013 Tenere heading for Inuvik about August 10th 2018
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?topic=21543.0

Alaska and western Canada trip planing
http://www.yamahasupertenere.com/index.php?board=84.0

2002 Honda GL1800, yellow, currently 508,000 smiles

Offline Nikolajsen

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #846 on: February 24, 2018, 03:41:41 am »
I experience something like this on my 2017....
For about 2 weeks ago, I was making  an adapter plate for the new Zumo, and had the old Zumo in the old holder just before (so there was some consumption from battery)
I then thought that I better start up, S10 startet right up  :)
But when I gave it some throttle, it died.....
When turning starter again, it would not start, and starter motor starts to slow down...not enough power on battery...
I immediately stopped, and put on a trickle charger  (Ctek), waitet 10 min. and tried again...
S10 startet up, but I had to give full throttle..
So here is what I think happened.
I think that when cold, the S10 gets a little to much gasoline, so when giving throttle to fast when cold, it will flood. If you give throttle very slow, it is possible to keep it running.

And yes, this is a 2017 european model, with new mapping for the Euro4.
I have no idea on how a 2014-2016 model not Euro4, wil behave.
XT 1200Z 2017 "Tech Black"

Offline Checkswrecks

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #847 on: February 24, 2018, 10:36:32 am »
So you are saying this hard start issue does not happen to Tenere’s 2014 and up ?  If that’s the case Yamaha must know the cure and should have a fix for the older Tenere.


Nobody - including Yamaha because I've been there - knows which changes for the Gen2 bikes released in 2014 alleviated the Gen1 problem. There were a number of changes and it could have been one change or a collection of them. The three things I've noticed over time:


1. They changed Ramseybella's wiring harness and it so far made a difference. They changed SAIL2XX harness and it didn't.


2. Fresh batteries seem to help, especially if going to the bigger 14S. And we never hear of hard starts from those with lithium, which has a flatter discharge curve. (But Li-Ion has enough down-sides that I would not recommend one, as discussed in other threads.)


3. Yamaha North America found that using their Med-RX fuel additive helped.


As Nikolajsen notes, you can get a hard start in a Gen2, but it almost takes effort to do it. In the Gen1s, some bikes were notorious and most had no problem.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2018, 10:38:11 am by Checkswrecks »
Damascus, MD
XTZ1200, KTM 690R

Offline Nikolajsen

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #848 on: February 24, 2018, 11:49:18 am »
you can get a hard start in a Gen2, but it almost takes effort to do it.

I agree :)
And I know that if you don't go "WROOOM WROOOM" on the throttle until it have been running about 1 min. There is no problem.
And there is also no problem, if you do as I normal do, just start up and go nice and easy right away.
Actually I normally first start the bike, when I'm sitting on it, ready for take off.

All ot the above is of course only experince from my short ownership of the S10  ;) and only one bike.
XT 1200Z 2017 "Tech Black"

Offline Dirt_Dad

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #849 on: February 24, 2018, 04:44:33 pm »
You can get what appears to be a hard start from a Gen 2, but it is something different.  I haven't reported it before, but it did happen to me last summer on my Alaksa trip when I was riding my wife's 2017 ES.

Situation - Bike had been ridden many hundreds of miles everyday for 7 days straight days with no issues.  Up next morning, approx 60 degrees, warmed up bike, rode 3 miles, shutdown bike for about 1 minute. Restarted bike rode another 3 miles and shutdown for 10 minutes.  Back on the bike, it would not start.  The 5 month old ES just cranked and cranked.  I went to WOT and it made no difference at all.  Bike gave no indication it was going to start.

After a long try, I finally reached for the key to turn off the ignition to let the starter cool down.  As I turned the key to the left I realized there had been no resistance moving the key out of the "On" detent to Off.  Finding that strange I immediately turned the key all the way to the On detent.  Hit the starter and it fired up immediately like normal.

Lesson learned - it is possible to partially engage the electrical system based on improper key position.  Gauge lights and starter are energized, but not everything necessary to run the bike.   

If your 2014+ bike appears to have a hard start, check your key position.
17 Super Tenere ES
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Offline BigBob

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #850 on: February 24, 2018, 10:10:41 pm »
Thanks Dad. Have had that happen a couple times. Turned the key off and waited for cycle down. Then on making sure fuel pump pressurized. Hit the button and it started. Did not notice the key pressure but I would bet that was it.
Member of Mid-Iowa Star #210
2014 Super Tenere ES
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Offline jackintherok

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #851 on: March 12, 2018, 08:38:42 pm »
Got the lithium battery (EarthX ETX36C) ten days ago. Failed to get the bike (1st Gen) not to start at temps down to 28 or covered with morning mist at 34. No more WOT (but I have a habit of just cracking the throttle first start of the day). No more making sure the engine is up to 75 F before switching it off, no more fuse 4 out, smells of flooded engine, plug changes, having to test that she will start before kitting up. She just starts immediately. Dam engine seems to have more grunt moving off as well. Early days ... but so far incredible improvement. Already confident that it will start when needed. Guy with an ETX28C in an S10 messaged me with the same story. Will keep in touch ... going for a ride.

Offline bimota

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #852 on: March 21, 2018, 01:32:52 pm »
hi,
don,t want to go through all the thread my bike will not start saw on page 1 about how to start it but WOT keeps popping up can someobody explain what the word WOT means is it with out throttle

cheers

rob

Offline Checkswrecks

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #853 on: March 21, 2018, 02:55:25 pm »
hi,
don,t want to go through all the thread my bike will not start saw on page 1 about how to start it but WOT keeps popping up can someobody explain what the word WOT means is it with out throttle

cheers

rob


WOT means holding wide open throttle. Be ready to reduce it as soon as the bike starts, but it'll usually cough a couple of times first.



Damascus, MD
XTZ1200, KTM 690R

Offline bimota

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Re: HARD START
« Reply #854 on: March 21, 2018, 03:26:41 pm »
thanks for quick reply

rob

 

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