Help please, 18 hours labor? Valve Adjustment & oil, coolant change?

[magic]

It's not that I can't do it, I just don't want to bother with it. I once owned a CBX and did several valve adjustments on that bike. I'm almost 62 years old, worked as a millwright for 37 years, retired at 57 and just don't want to mess with it anymore. I wish I could just take it to a Yamaha dealer and trust them to do a proper job, but as I stated the dealers around here are not very familiar with the S10. I am enjoying my S10, but I'm not that attached to it. I have 2 more seasons on my YES warranty, but will need a valve check before that.

[DryRider]

I’ll let you know what I end up paying...

[Ramseybella]

  No way no how!!
My mechanic is very good at what he does and being independent works on all makes and models.
He never did a Tenere valve check and it took him 4 hours, everything getting to the valve check is right inline with what you asked. Tank off, air box cover off add filter big open space when the Fi is removed to do the head bearing adjustment, pull the plugs to remover cam cover replace after valve check install new plugs..
You're getting burned.
Breaks are not that hard the rear is ridiculously easy.
With all that my mechanic doesn't really want to do a valve check again, PITA.

[GearheadGrrrl]

I'm a crippled old lady but I've done the valve checks on two parallel twins myself (BMW F800S and the S10). At my relaxed pace it's an all day job including plugs and air filter replacement, but I've never had to drop the engine. BTW, what dealer was this so I can avoid them?

[RCinNC]

It's not that I can't do it, I just don't want to bother with it. I once owned a CBX and did several valve adjustments on that bike. I'm almost 62 years old, worked as a millwright for 37 years, retired at 57 and just don't want to mess with it anymore. I wish I could just take it to a Yamaha dealer and trust them to do a proper job, but as I stated the dealers around here are not very familiar with the S10. I am enjoying my S10, but I'm not that attached to it. I have 2 more seasons on my YES warranty, but will need a valve check before that.

I hope I didn't imply that you weren't able to do it; that wasn't my intention.  I totally get the idea of not wanting to do it any more.  I just meant that no bike is free from that sort of aggravation (which you obviously already know), and for me, I'd hate getting rid of a bike every two years (which is about how long it takes me to bounce off the valve check interval) for this sort of maintenance.  I usually keep my bikes for years; the shortest was my VStrom at just over 2 years, but I had my Harley for 10.

[magic]

Hey no problem RC. Good discussion. The OP, DryRider could be looking at a bill here for over $2000. I think $100/hour is about what most dealers charge around here. 18 hours plus parts, oil shop, supplies etc. ouch! Good thing they didn't have to change any shims...or maybe they did. If his bike is a gen 1, it's only worth about $7000 or so. $2000 for a routine maintenance procedure is pretty steep. Heck, there are some leftover 17's around here for $12000. Hopefully he doesn't get billed for that much.

[RonH]

If you take your time and are careful, the valve check takes some time. Not 18hrs probably, but anyone that can do it in 3 or 4hrs is quite amazing. I do my own and actually enjoy it. I would not trust a dealer to even actually do the check. Most of them I know most likely would just say "checked and everything was fine" without even doing the work. They *can* do the "work" pretty quickly this way.

[RCinNC]

At some point, if you use a mechanic for something, you do have to have some faith that they're doing what you pay them to do.  You're kind of hamstrung; you can't go back in the bay to watch them.  I still have some police evidence tape laying around; next valve check, maybe I'll put a small piece somewhere on the gas tank, out of the way where they can't see it.  That way they'll break the evidence tape when they lift the tank.  It's still no guarantee that they did the work, but at least you'll know they lifted the fuel tank.

You can also tell them you want to know the actual clearance on each valve, and want it written down on the work order.  If they won't do that, you can always look for a different shop (if there's one available; my closest is 50 minutes, the next closest is just over an hour and they suck, and then it's a two hour drive).  I suppose they could lie about the clearances too, but at some point if you're going to use a shop, you have to surrender a little bit of control.

[Don T]

Just checked the bill from the 40.000 km service on my bike.
Complete service including all fluids and 4 valves needed adjustment.
5½ hours labor.

18 hours is rip-off.

[Checkswrecks]

...I still have some police evidence tape laying around; next valve check, maybe I'll put a small piece somewhere on the gas tank, out of the way where they can't see it.  That way they'll break the evidence tape when they lift the tank.  It's still no guarantee that they did the work, but at least you'll know they lifted the fuel tank.
...

Strand of hair from the dog and a touch of Elmer's at each end. The elmers washes off and it's much less conspicuous.
 

[ace50]

I'm a crippled old lady but I've done the valve checks on two parallel twins myself (BMW F800S and the S10). At my relaxed pace it's an all day job including plugs and air filter replacement, but I've never had to drop the engine. BTW, what dealer was this so I can avoid them?

Awesome! 

[Tenman]

I got charged $450 for a valve check. They gave me a receipt with the clearances written on it. Everything was within spec. I took mine to a shop 90 miles away. I decided to take a shot in the dark. I didn't know anything about the dealership except it was big and had been there a long time. I got a price upfront for the job. But when I called to go get it. The price she gave me was something like $200 more. After talking with somebody else there. I got the orginal price. I do have a dealer 5 miles from house. I wouldn't let them work on a weedeater. I have an independent shop 4 miles away. I found out later. This guy lets his 14 year old son reassemble. I had him replace an oil pan on a zrx1200 I crushed in. I rode it  8 miles down a winding road and the oil plug came out. I did a full lock power slide in a curve and (got lucky) and saved it. I also took a cr500 shock to a veteran independent. He pressed the spherical bearing out of my shock and didn't remove the f king circlip. Pressed the clip out and ruined the lower end of my shock. That damn shock had been sent to race tech and was tricked out. Live and learn the hard way.

[steve68steve]

I took my S 10 into the shop last week I ask them for a valve check coolant flush oil change air filter change and spark plug change they called today and said they had 18 hours in this work alone? They said they had to drop the motor from its engine mounts in front to perform the service. I was very surprised. I also asked for brake fluid and clutch fuild...check the steering head bearing and the pivot arm bushing. They said that would be about 12 more hours if they needed to pull the triple tree to get at it? Can you help me understand how much this should cost? Remember I’m at a dealership and I can’t do this work myself.

I replied already, but I don't think I'd digested the OP when I did. 


I'm in the "wow, that's way out of line!" camp.


Valve check: there's a lot of parts to remove to get to the valves, but for a competent mechanic something like a few hours makes sense.
Adjustment needed: that means pulling camshafts, which adds time, plus the figuring and calculating.  Something like another 2 or 3 hours makes sense.


Neither of these jobs needs the engine dropped - altho IME, pivoting the engine down may make the job go a lot easier (less fiddling around in restricted space).  Obviously this is a choice, and if it takes more time to make the job easier to do, that time shouldn't be billed to you.  If they have to do valve work, pulling the head is required, and I think that requires at least rotating the engine down to get clearance.


Coolant flush: crack a bolt on the water pump, drain and refill.  !5 minutes, maybe?  You need to pull the plastics on the left side of the bike.  Again, if you've done it a bunch of times, 5 minutes.  If you have to fiddle around with the manual searching for hidden bayonet pins, I could see that taking another 15 minutes.


Oil change: 10 minutes.  Crack two bolts on the bottom of the engine, fill easily accessible on the right side of the bike.  Filter easily accessible on the front of the bike.


Air filter: you have to pull the tank and the airbox cover.  I'd say a 30 minutes - but this stuff has to come off to do the valve check, so doing them together makes this job take an extra 5 minutes (to swap in the new filter).


Spark plugs: these are buried deep in the head.  I'm not sure you could get to them without removing all the stuff you need to remove for the valve check (tank, airbox, throttle bodies).  A biggie is that you don't need to remove the actual valve cover, which is a fiddle business that involves removing ABS line plumbing stays.  However long a valve check takes, this would take maybe 20 minutes less.  Having said that, again, if everything is all apart to do the valve check, changing plugs only adds 15 minutes or so (gapping new plugs and threading them in).


Changing hydraulic fluids should be an hour or less.


Swing arm pivot:  pull the back wheel, the final drive, probably a few covers/ guards, kickstand, kickstand switch, stuff like that.  I did it but I don't remember exactly.  Point:  more involved than cracking the pivot arm bolt, several torque specs to look up and set.  It's one of those jobs that seems like it should take 45 minutes but and hour and half later you're still on it wondering why it's taking so long.


Steering head I've never done, but I assume it means pulling the front wheel, brake calipers, forks, and bars.  Probably more than just an hour. Everything that gets taken apart also has to get put back together: parts cleaning, thread locker or lubricants, torque settings.  IME, THAT is all the time you don't account for.


As others have said, I agree that they should have some "book time" guidelines and the hours they are charging seem to be at least a sum of all the individual times -as in, they're charging the full hours to change plugs, even tho most of that time is already paid for via the valve check.  So, for example: air filter, valve check, plugs, they're charging you three times to remove the tank.

[mtnlove]

In my previous life I was a service manager. There is a labor guide for everything. If the book states 4.5 hours you charge 4.5 X your hourly rate. If you give the job to your worst tech and it takes 6.5 hours, you charge 4.5 hours. If you give the job to your best tech and it take 3.5 hours, you charge 4.5 hours. It's that simple.

It would be impossible to write an estimate without these guides, as nobody has done everything to every model let alone remember how long it took.

I have not had a dealer work on my bike but understand the flat rate idea.  Since the OP gave them a list of things to do would they charge it for the time specified for each job even though that particular job, i.e. replacing the air filter if the air box is already exposed for the valve check?

[PAULIBIKER]

I have not had a dealer work on my bike but understand the flat rate idea.  Since the OP gave them a list of things to do would they charge it for the time specified for each job even though that particular job, i.e. replacing the air filter if the air box is already exposed for the valve check?

An inexperienced or dishonest service manager might. I had a new service writer try and charge a customer for a tire rotation when we were already balancing the tires. Some service writers just do know, but I like to believe all service managers do.