Author Topic: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.  (Read 985 times)

Offline Dogdaze

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Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« on: June 13, 2018, 02:15:05 am »
Ok, let's start by saying that this is not intended to offend any sensitive souls.
But recently I have investigated the avenue of renouncing citizenship, as I find myself at opposite ends of the US government trajectory, for nearly 20 years actually, we are just not on the same path. I have the option of never coming back to the US, and have not in the past 21 years.
I would like to have various points of view, no shouting, yelling or name calling please, civil comments are welcome.
All things being equal, would you do it?
I have dual nationality as does my family so that may give you a better understanding of our personal position, we are not tied to the US by a passport.
I do like the US and think about the kids growing up there, but then I watch the news and see things and think, NO WAY!
Sure, we live in a nice environment here and that may make a difference. What I vehemently dislike is the US government dictating to us how we should be grateful to them and so are never free from their reach, how to spend our money, forget the fact that living abroad was a choice we made (like others) and the assumption that we will all return one day to live out our lives (that will never happen in our case) and so  make it extremely difficult for US citizens to put down roots in other countries due to financial pressure of the US.
On top of that, the fees and penalties to pay should you wish to extricate yourself from the shackles of the US brotherhood, almost mafia-like.
The more I see of this the more I am convinced of my opinion that the US is NOT the land of the free, unless you are super rich or in Congress/Senate. You are just a SS number, nothing more. 
I do get some are more patriotic than others and I respect you for that, it's just not me, at least not in the sense that I feel I have to agree with everything the US does or I'm not patriotic.
 
As I get older, I am no longer surprised at what I know, I'm surprised at how much I don't know.

Offline bruinTENEREguy

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2018, 03:46:19 am »
My politics might not be what you'd expect. I've found myself on both sides on various issues. I've realized that the notion of "propaganda" is not limited to countries like N. Korea; we have plenty of that here too. Most of what you say is true, at least to some degree.

Nevertheless, I believe there is no better club to be a part of. Still the greatest.

(And I, too, have citizenship elsewhere as well.)

Online steve68steve

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2018, 05:12:00 am »
What do you gain by renouncing US citizenship?  Are you taxed by both countries?


If the only advantage to renouncing citizenship is to spite the US or claim some sort of moral high ground, I wouldn't.  If there is some financial advantage (like avoiding being double-taxed, or qualifying for benefits in your ex-pat country is contingent on NOT being a dual citizen), then I would.


Seems like it should be a strategic decision, not an emotional one.

Offline Dogdaze

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2018, 05:14:46 am »
I'll just add this as to my thought process: I have zero interest in ever returning to the US, this is our home, my wife's and children's. We cannot pay into a pension here as any tax break you get doing that (same as US) will be taken up by the IRS as the US does not recognise foreign pension funds, only US based so will will be taxed twice, on top of that, we cannot buy a house here, for the same reason, not to mention, that virtually every bank in the EU will not accept US citizens as customers and so cannot get a mortgage, loan, bank account, or financial planning advice. If you are in anyway linked to the US, you are treated like a leper. Thank you IRS and State Dept for that. Maybe some of us don't want to live in the US!! Government makes so many false assumptions that they then will not look at an individual level, so where's the freedom in that?

A member mentioned that the US is or will be a powerhouse militarily and financially and perhaps I should want to belong to that club. Perhaps for those same reasons of greed and bullying (my view of what that means) is the reason for us to leave?

The notion that everyone wants to come to live and be an American citizen is arrogant. That always reminds me of a scene in 'Lethal Weapon' whereby the South African asks Danny Glover's character why he wants top go to SA? It's the same principle. Sure things are expensive here, but what price do you put on the well being and security of your family and mental peace?

Renouncing is not to 'spite' the US, but it allows us to make a personal choice that otherwise does not permit us to do so. Why should we end up financially worse because the US does not recognise certain aspects of another country?
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Offline Squibb

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2018, 06:06:40 am »
My initial reaction was surely it's better to have a foot in both camps & keep your options open. That was until I read your piece about the IRS tax grab - is there no way around this with say a corporate entity or trust?

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Offline Dogdaze

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2018, 06:29:33 am »
My initial reaction was surely it's better to have a foot in both camps & keep your options open. That was until I read your piece about the IRS tax grab - is there no way around this with say a corporate entity or trust?

That was our initial thoughts too, unfortunately as we are 'normal' working stiffs, we work, pay tax, retire and die. It's getting really tiring living under the threat of the IRS and State Department that if you even think about not filing a return or they think you have done something wrong they will freeze your bank accounts, invalidate your US passport and deny any rights to you as a US citizen until YOU prove you have done nothing wrong, not to mention the annual cost of filing of @$1000  just to show you owe the US zero taxes. Who needs it?
I have nothing against paying taxes, I actually  see where it goes since we moved here, so no problem. There is no over spend on anything, nothing is wasted, they don't go to war or build up the military of some false perception that if you have an extra million troops you are somehow more protected, as if they could stop a nuke from landing on your head! Sorry, side tracked!
I actually don't care what a country does, as long as I don't end up paying for it.
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Offline OldRider

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 08:25:08 am »
I'm sure you live in a nice place and I would probably like it myself, but as far as living in the US goes, all you have to do is turn the news off, stay away from large cities and life is good. I feel free.

Offline Checkswrecks

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2018, 09:02:03 am »
THIS THREAD IS ON A SHORT LEASH.


As always, you can address the points of somebody's argument nad we each have a different point of view.
BUT the instant you attack another member, the pruning shears will come out.

'nuff said.
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Offline Rambler

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2018, 09:15:18 am »

Interesting topic and discussion.
Following keenly.
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Offline Crew Chief

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2018, 09:30:52 am »
If you are determining what life is like in the US by the news, you are getting a warped sense of the country. I've traveled the world and there is still no place else I'd rather be. In fact the parts of living here that I like the least are the parts where we try to emulate what some of the rest of the world is doing.

With that said, your decision seems easy to me . You have no interest in living here, you have no interest in being a citizen and have no affinity for the country, you are apparently not receiving any benefit from the citizenship (I could likely argue the inverse as well) and the citizenship is in fact creating hardships for you. I see no reason for you to be a US citizen - unless of course the fact that you are hesitant and are posting here indicate that you have more of an affinity for the place than you are telling us about.  In the end, you are either receiving benefit (financial or psychological) from the citizenship, or you are not.
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Offline Abercrombie Tenere

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2018, 09:52:19 am »
I have nothing against paying taxes, I actually  see where it goes since we moved here, so no problem. There is no over spend on anything, nothing is wasted, they don't go to war or build up the military of some false perception that if you have an extra million troops you are somehow more protected, as if they could stop a nuke from landing on your head! Sorry, side tracked!
I actually don't care what a country does, as long as I don't end up paying for it.

Whoa, I was on your side until this line.  "nothing is wasted, they don't go to war or build up the military of some false perception that if you have an extra million troops you are somehow more protected, as if they could stop a nuke from landing on your head!"
 
I would have to guess that some time over the last hundred years Switzerland would've ceased to exist if it weren't for the sacrifices of its allies military, money, lives that have been given to maintain peace and stability in the European region allowing Switzerland to maintain its "neutrality".   The so called wasted effort of a strong military with the so called false perception of safety is exactly why your are able to sit at your computer and smugly write how you don't need to waste money on a strong military.   

"I actually don't care what a country does, as long as I don't end up paying for it."  That's right,,,,, go ahead and renounce your citizenship to the USA.  You shouldn't have to pay for the protection of living in an unstable world.  Let the USA, Switzerland's neighbors Italy, France, Germany and the rest of NATO take care of the expensive dirty work while you sit in your little protected pocket of the world.  The only false perception I see is your view that if you claim neutrality, the rest of the world will just leave you alone to live your life in paradise.   I wish this was true.  I wish we all could claim neutrality and live together happily ever after but we don't live in that fantasy world.

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:56:49 am by Abercrombie Tenere »
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Offline Dogdaze

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2018, 10:04:01 am »
Crew Chief, spot on, having citizenship is proving to be a hardship financially to us as a family, it puts us into a 'limbo' of sorts, we cannot save for a pension here and paying into a US pension will cost us more tax issues here. BTW, here is where we plan on being, not the US, visiting a place and living there are two very different things. Some people believe their country (where ever that is) is the best place on earth, having lived in 5 continents, for us personally, we are happy here, it has it's challenges but we like.
My gripe it not with the US, or the people, but what the government via the IRS is putting 1000's of US citizens through. Most if not all are hard working and pay their taxes, locally, where they live, so why have those still file and assume that they would want to invest financially into a country or system that they would never benefit from?
All I want is a future for my children, not the US government!
BTW, we are planning on renouncing, just wanted views as perhaps something like this has never crossed your minds. Nothing is as simple as they want you to believe. On top of that, you have to pay the State Dept @ $2500 to get out, per person, it used to be $400, but they saw how many people were bailing so they up'd the price.
Now if only I could sell my citizenship on ebay, hhmmmm.

Also, even Switzerland pays into a global system for peacekeeping. I will not enter into an argument about the US foreign or domestic policy, your opinion it just that. I'm relaying my personal feeling on this.
As I get older, I am no longer surprised at what I know, I'm surprised at how much I don't know.

Offline fac191

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2018, 10:37:00 am »
You should come to England anyone can buy anything here, even The Donald has something.

Offline Dogdaze

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2018, 10:45:05 am »
You should come to England anyone can buy anything here, even The Donald has something.

Thanks for the offer, but left there 9 years ago.......... not really wanting to come back just yet  ::008:: My S10 is still registered there.
As I get older, I am no longer surprised at what I know, I'm surprised at how much I don't know.

Offline TNRyder

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Re: Citizenship Renouncing- Caution, this may offend.
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 11:38:11 am »
I lived in Germany for 9 years. I was in the USAF but I never lived on little America (The Base).  I was there before and after the Wall came down. I still have friends there I keep in touch with. Before the wall fell the Country was pristine all the time. Our military was on alert almost constantly. Even when we weren’t exercising at my base I had to carry my war gear when traveling because we had to participate if on another base that was exercising.  Even at that I loved the place and felt at home. I married a local national and we fit in totally.  At the end of 9 years we had to come to the states.  We were here for about 5 years when we had to go back because of the wife’s family health problems. After being in Country for 5 months, my family; wife and two girls could not wait to get back to the states.
When we were stationed there the military papers touted how bad it was in the states. High crime, discrimination, all the negatives. It also painted a rosy picture of life in Europe. I had friends on base who thought they were in nirvana where all things are taken care of and crime was eliminated. I used to tell them they were uninformed because they did not watch RTL, ARD, or any other local tv channels just AFN (American Forces Network).  These people were shocked to hear of murders in a Gasthaus nearby. The robbery of a hotel with a machine gun etc. Propaganda is rampant in ALL governments. Politically things are bad here. They are also in Europe. I am appalled to see the vehement unbridled hatred an act such as peace talks with Korea has provoked in the party not in power. You would think our President was a mad man to pursue peace. All negatives accounted for both regions of the globe, there is still no place like home. My wife and kids thought so and became citizens and surrendered their German Reisepass over 10 years ago. I do have one question, do you do your own taxes? I have used HR Block software and done my own for over 20 years and I’m not a tax wizard. Also, a few years back Tina Turner renounced her citizenship for Swiss. Good luck brother and I urge you to weigh the options and “what if” the future.


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